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Paul Jackson Bad Pocket???
- Thread starter Mumwup
- Start date
I'll take a shot here-
Some guys are more "pattern"-oriented.
They play a figure & stick to it without any deviation. Some of the James Brown grooves are strictly a "pattern" (1 or 2 bar figures with little deviation).
Bootsy, though, was a different animal & would embellish even the simplest of figures (e.g. "Sex Machine").
Jamerson is another guy that would not stick a pattern...
Lately, though, it seems a 1-bar figure becomes the groove & that's "it".
Maybe it's the Disco thang still permeating...stick to a consistent (albeit static) groove for the dancers.
Do you think Jackson embellishes a "pattern" too much & that is a groove killer?
A drummer I gigged with really helped me get out the 1-bar groove/figure/pattern mode. He suggested thinking in 2-bar phrases & think about rhythms that would cross the barline...then he wanted 4-bar phrases...eventually, he wanted me to think of a piece of music having a beginning & an end...but with no barlines between.
It's a journey...
I saw him play at The Mint in LA a couple of years ago and he STILL can out funk ANYONE. He is literally from another planet harmonically, rhythmically, funkickly...
It was mind blowing how he is able to stretch the meter and the harmony and still sound " in". I brought my digital recorder but didn't have the guts to take it out because I was sitting right in front. Man I regret not getting that night on tape because it was truly amazing. I remember him playing a blues and NEVER once playing the one, four or five chord BUT IT STILL SOUNDED LIKE BLUES! a true master....
To JimK:
I'm glad you mentioned Jamerson and Bootsy. Jamerson did indeed "not stick to a pattern," But, he never disturbed the groove. He always held the pocket. He is arguably the best example of how to embellish a groove while still holding the pocket and the groove.
You are correct when you refer to Bootsy as is an "embellisher." Unfortunately Bootsy DOES disturb the groove and often loses the pocket. Nevertheless, he still remains one of my favorites.
Again, on those classic Herbie tracks I listed, it is the other musicians who hold the groove not Jackson. Is it bad? No. Certainly his playing is complementary, and yes funky. But he ain't the one holdin' the groove. It's the others.
With regard to not holding a groove, another of my favorite bassists comes to mind, Stanley Clarke. Stanley is the reason I started playing bass. He was, and is still, a major influence, but I don't have any illusions. Stanley isn't exactly a groove/pocket master either.
...Funky and pocket/groove ain't the same thing. Can you be funky without holding a groove? I think the answer is yes. But it is truly awesome when the two intersect.
One more thing, try to imagine some of those Herbie's tunes I mentioned earlier with the bass soloed and all of the other tracks muted. Now tell me you think those bass lines are in the pocket.
I'm glad you mentioned Jamerson and Bootsy. Jamerson did indeed "not stick to a pattern," But, he never disturbed the groove. He always held the pocket. He is arguably the best example of how to embellish a groove while still holding the pocket and the groove.
You are correct when you refer to Bootsy as is an "embellisher." Unfortunately Bootsy DOES disturb the groove and often loses the pocket. Nevertheless, he still remains one of my favorites.
Again, on those classic Herbie tracks I listed, it is the other musicians who hold the groove not Jackson. Is it bad? No. Certainly his playing is complementary, and yes funky. But he ain't the one holdin' the groove. It's the others.
With regard to not holding a groove, another of my favorite bassists comes to mind, Stanley Clarke. Stanley is the reason I started playing bass. He was, and is still, a major influence, but I don't have any illusions. Stanley isn't exactly a groove/pocket master either.
...Funky and pocket/groove ain't the same thing. Can you be funky without holding a groove? I think the answer is yes. But it is truly awesome when the two intersect.
One more thing, try to imagine some of those Herbie's tunes I mentioned earlier with the bass soloed and all of the other tracks muted. Now tell me you think those bass lines are in the pocket.
Mumwop...Well stated! That's why Jamerson is Jamerson. Bootsy has had a unique knack of getting his line out front but at what price? He does lose the pocket but what the hell...it's just "funk" LOL. That's why JJ is the total package while Bootsy does leave room for serious critique once you remove the flash, persona, and highly sophisticated electronics and engineering. That said...Bootsy is a lot of fun and can make us smile.
I've never been the world's biggest Paul Jackson fan. Never had a problem with him just didn't listen to him in a concentrated manner a whole lot (though I'd listened enough to recognise certain stylistic aspects of his playing). After reading your post and all of the responses I figured I'd go back and listen to a bunch of Paul Jackson recordings (solo stuff as well as sideman stuff). First of all I think you need to define "pocket" and "pocket player". I wouldn't say that Jackson is not a "pocket player". I will admit, however, that I find his playing sloppy at times. At times he will rush a note (and not in a pushing sort of way) and sometimes he will be late (but not in an "I'm playing behind the beat" kind of way). How much that detracts from the bass tracks overall is a personal preference thing I guess. I'm listening to "Hop Scotch" by Harvey Mason right now and there are definitely some things in there that I would change if I could. At the same time I find that Jackson's playing has so much personality (in a positive way) that I can live with the (what might be considered) faults. Interesting topic though and, unlike a lot of folks here, I can't bring myself to jump down your throat for asking the questions you're asking. In any event, it's been fun listening to all of this stuff that I hadn't listened to in a while. 
i love paul's playing, i love the headhunters and herbie as well. paul is rock solid and an influence of mine, i love his style, definitely not super far behind the beat (ala pino w/ d'angelo) but closer to the beat.
if you're looking for super laid back grooves he's the wrong dude, that's erykah badu, d'angelo, etc. he's more jazz funk, which is still behind the beat, but it's jazz so it's got a little more gittyup.
if you're looking for super laid back grooves he's the wrong dude, that's erykah badu, d'angelo, etc. he's more jazz funk, which is still behind the beat, but it's jazz so it's got a little more gittyup.
I got into his playing relatively late, I'm sorry to say. He definitely is an influence, in as much as he's been so "influential" just about anyone who's ever played anything remotely funky is playing in a genre that he has helped to define.BB-
...I just checked your influences ('cause I know you have been around TB for a while; your avatar is easy to remember)-
Hard to believe you missed out on Paul Jackson.
I'm beginning to suspect OP simply has a different definition of "pocket" than every other musician I've ever met in my entire life.
"try to imagine some of those Herbie's tunes I mentioned earlier with the bass soloed and all of the other tracks muted. Now tell me you think those bass lines are in the pocket."
Hell yes.
"try to imagine some of those Herbie's tunes I mentioned earlier with the bass soloed and all of the other tracks muted. Now tell me you think those bass lines are in the pocket."
Hell yes.
I think what the OP is saying is basically that he doesn't really dig Paul Jackson's playing/sound/style. Just not a fan of Paul Jackson. Which, I guess is ok.
+1 - Not digging Paul's style is fine - art is subjective of course. However, he IS in the pocket - that is not subjective.
J
A great St. Louis area bassist, who is also a member of TB, Zeb Briskovitch, mentioned to me after a gig his, that Paul Jackson is differentfrom most funk because he tends to be on top of the beat, instead of behind it. As other said, he does not not play laid back, hip hop style grooves. His music is more intense and driving. It is true jazz-funk in that he improvises the groove as well as the notes. He does not lock down mechanically, he locks down on the essence of the groove.
I'm guessing you meant to write "he improvises the groove" ?
But yeah, that's one of the things that to me makes Paul's playing so amazing: He's not just grooving on a short pattern or brief motif; he's grooving on an ongoing dialog with the drummer. It's almost a through-composed line, but it's still propels the music forward with its stone-cold badassedness.
You are right, I meant improvises. It is important to remember that much of his great work was done with Mike Clark, a man who was his room mate for a long time. They are tight musically and personally, and it shows.
Just wanted to add that for ME, a little bit of sloppy technique and the ability to stretch the time beyond 'what the metronome says' completely DEFINES what is Funk with a capital F. And I'll go one further: IMO and for my tastes, players who have absolutely flawless technique and who play everything exactly on the beat metronomically are some of the LEAST interesting or funky players to my ears.
First off, I love Paul Jackson's playing. But, I can see the OP's point- he does not slavishly get in under the drums and relentlessly play pocket-perfect. BUT- it's jazz. Like another poster above mentioned, his playing has a ton of personality and originality. Overall I'll take it. I think the people he plays with enjoy the fact that he's going to push back, he's going to have his way with a groove, and it might not be 'pocket perfect' but it will be creative and invigorating, in my opinion. So it's cool by me if PJ's not your thing, but I do dig it.
