Double Bass Peacock Blows off Costello...

[TroyK]

So the thread is going to devolve into ******** assumptions about free jazz and free jazz musicians?

I once saw Barre Philips put wooden clothespins in his strings and tap, thump and pluck around various places on his very fine, old instrument. I didn't get it. It didn't seem musical to me and it wasn't clear to me that he actually knew how to play the bass, although I've since learned that he in fact does.

I looked around the room however and realized that there were people there who were getting exactly what they came for.

So, my take? I don't get it. Maybe I'm not ready, likely I'll never get it. But, I've never said a disparaging thing about Barre Philips or that music. It's just not my thing.

You have been pretty critical and condecending towards the life's work of Elvis Costello in this thread. That's where I'm churning.

Want respect, you have to give respect or at least not take contempt to the masses and expect respect in return.

 

[musicman5string]

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[MingusAmongUs]

How about a collective middle finger to the folks running the Iridium?

 

[Audiophage]

People like to use words like snob, elitlist and all those others terms to justify being average. The real translation of that article is: it is a lot easier to get laid if you put a pixies cd on.

According to people like the clown who wrote that most of the rest you are just one level below - maybe if you listened to the Ramones instead of Mingus you would more "hip".

What about those who listen to both the Ramones and Mingus, eh? I don't listen to music to copy the musician I listen to, but to listen to their music. I could care less if one musician supposedly had too much artistic integrity to recognize another style of music as equal to theirs. How does that prevent me from listening to either party's' music? Remember that in Mingus' time Jazz was looked down on by classical musicians and fans. Improvisation was not looked at as a skill but as the lack there of. In the past 50 years people have opened their minds to such things.

I mean, there is something to be said about musical open mindedness while still having a sense of your own taste. Likewise, words like snob and elitist are used to describe people who aren't able to see that the activities that they partake in and groups that they are part of are better than others.

I see that you are into Free Jazz. I'm sure that you're aware of Miles Davis' opinions on Ornette Coleman.

Anyways, I'm not really into Gary Peacock or Elvis Costello, and I'm sure that there had to have been more to the story than Peacock refusing to play a couple of songs just because he is some kind of Jazz snob. That first article sounded way too biased to be of any factual value.

 

[Audiophage]

"Hmmmm....Nah, I don't play backup to no rockstar."

"Hey Gary, guess which finger I'm thinking of".

LOLZORZ

 

[Marcus Johnson]

"Blame It On My Youth" from "The Cure"

Thanks for that, mm5.... I just listened to it. F***er can really play some bass. And you know what... he hasn't the faintest idea who any of us are.... well, other than WARMBUTTOCKS.

Okay, resume the spitwad contest. Hurry up, I hear gates slammin' shut.

 

[damonsmith]

What about those who listen to both the Ramones and Mingus, eh? I don't listen to music to copy the musician I listen to, but to listen to their music. I could care less if one musician supposedly had too much artistic integrity to recognize another style of music as equal to theirs. How does that prevent me from listening to either party's' music? Remember that in Mingus' time Jazz was looked down on by classical musicians and fans. Improvisation was not looked at as a skill but as the lack there of. In the past 50 years people have opened their minds to such things.

I mean, there is something to be said about musical open mindedness while still having a sense of your own taste. Likewise, words like snob and elitist are used to describe people who aren't able to see that the activities that they partake in and groups that they are part of are better than others.

I see that you are into Free Jazz. I'm sure that you're aware of Miles Davis' opinions on Ornette Coleman.

Anyways, I'm not really into Gary Peacock or Elvis Costello, and I'm sure that there had to have been more to the story than Peacock refusing to play a couple of songs just because he is some kind of Jazz snob. That first article sounded way too biased to be of any factual value.

The comment you quoted was based on a posted link an article about music snobs, with indie rock snobs being the bottom of pyrimid, jazz being the center, and free jazz being the top (the worst).

I come from punk rock and still listen to some. I just found a Sacchrinne Trust album I have been looking for for years...

 

[damonsmith]

You have been pretty critical and condecending towards the life's work of Elvis Costello in this thread. That's where I'm churning.

Where? You mean where I said I probably would have played with him?
So far the only critical thing I have said about Costello is that I don't think he has done anthing as good as Albert Ayler's "Spiritual Unity", if I thought otherwise I'd have made hugely different life decisions.

Before I heard the racist stuff I thought he was fine, not too exciting to me personally but hardly someone I wouldn't respect.

All I have defended is Peacock's artistic decision to not play with him.

 

[musicman5string]

I don't believe in equality in music. Not for one second. Nobody is going to convince me that Peacock and Costello are artistic equals even if Costello is on the upper end of his Genre.

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[damonsmith]

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Ok, that too. But that is hardly mean or condescending it is just my personal opinion, and similar to the Ayler comment. I love Gary Peacock's playing, I am indifferent to Costello's. If I thought otherwise I'd probably be posting on talksingersongwriter.com instead.

I doubt EC would tell you he got to where he is by sticking to ideals, he got there by making music people wanted to hear, what I can respect about what he did is he did it with a lot of attention to details, high musical standards and consitency which is tough to do in his arena.

They still are different musicians with different ideals.
Maybe comparable to Werner Herzog and Quentin Tarrantino, though I really like both, they have different motivations.

 

[TroyK]

You know, I don't have it in me to search through 11 pages of this discussion to quote where my feeling about that is coming from. References like "some pop signer" come to mind and certainly have an implicaton to them.

If I thought otherwise I'd probably be posting on talksingersongwriter.com instead.

Actually, you brought discussion of Elvis Costello to talkbass.com, not us.

I doubt EC would tell you he got to where he is by sticking to ideals...

Actually I think that he would. He has lashed out against politics and the music business, has never been a pop superstar as a result of it. Was, as someone mentioned, banned for life from performing on Saturday Night Live for singing Radio Radio contrary to instructions.

As near as I can tell, he's attempted much more to follow in the shoes of Kurt Vonnegut than either Michael Jackson or Charlie Parker. Download "Raise the White Flag" and give it a good listen. It's a delightful little ditty about domestic abuse and victims who tolorate it because they feel loved. Co-dependancy a decade before a psycologist wrote a book about co-dependancy and coined the term. He probably sold exactly zero copies of that single, but maybe it reached someone. Biting satire with 3 pleasent little chords. Much more effective than if had been the same message hidden in dark death metal. It's art man. Take it or leave it, there is plenty to go around, but he has as much integrity as the next guy.

They still are different musicians with different ideals.

On that, we completely agree. Can we just leave it there or shall we go on for another 11 pages of not coming around to each ohter's points of view?

 

[damonsmith]

Can we just leave it there or shall we go on for another 11 pages of not coming around to each ohter's points of view?

11 pages is pretty good. We needed to at least be able beat the AAJ thread at 8 pages!

Still, I can't resist: What if it was Butch Warren who didn't want to play EC's music?
It really doesn't matter, though - my main point is each person sets their own musical parameters, and those parameters should be respected.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I’ve been thinking about why I got so pissed and after a couple of days I just started to laugh about it. I don’t like the justification of artistic elitism but I don’t have any rational argument against it….or argument of any kind. These thoughts are all I could distill from the yard sale that seems to be the natural state of my brain.

an artist goes to the eternal and mirrors what he finds
there is no correct way of it only degrees of clarity.
clarity achieved through struggle or as a gift
in any case it’s not anymore special than washing windows

When it comes right down to it defending Peacock isn’t defending any kind of artistic decision on his part but rather his right to be a grumpy old man. Since I’m headed down that road at breakneck speed myself I now realize it’s been incredibly hypocritical to argue against his choice as hard as I have. Ooops…...

 

[TroyK]

Still, I can't resist: What if it was Butch Warren who didn't want to play EC's music?

I would say exactly what I did in this case: We don't really know what happenned, because we're not the insiders that we like to think we are. Even if they were both friends of mine, unless I was there and had a good talk with each of them afterwards, I wouldn't feel like I understood the situation enough to talk about it publicly (to Bruce's point, I might in a set break with the fellas).

If it had been Butch Warren, things would have been said about his past, his problems and it would have felt just as uncomfortable.

They're all just people out doing their thing and managing the relationships they have with the people they meet doing their things.

 

[damonsmith]

When it comes right down to it defending Peacock isn’t defending any kind of artistic decision on his part but rather his right to be a grumpy old man. Since I’m headed down that road at breakneck speed myself I now realize it’s been incredibly hypocritical to argue against his choice as hard as I have. Ooops…...

I wouldn't think being a grumpy old man needs defending around here, especially when we are talking about 70 year old double bassist.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

While Eddie Van Halen POPULARIZED the two handed tapping technique . . . he DID NOT "invent" it. That dubious honor probably goes to his teacher, Ted Greene, who also taught the technique to Jay Graydon and several other of his (TG's) students at the time (mid '70's) . . .

Thank you. I'm also willing to bet that Ted Greene got some ideas from the classical tradition of virtuoso violin playing. My first wife was a violinist, and IMHO Eddie Van Halen had nothing on Paganini. Some of the **** that he wrote was unbelievable. Hoo-ah!

As far as Brian's playing, the tapping is probably my least favorite aspect of it. My objection to using that aspect of his playing dismissively is that it's not an essential part of what he does (again, IMO). The tone, the intonation, the lines over changes, and the sheer beauty of the technique are worthy of admiration alone, and that's before you take into account his wonderful sense of melody on cuts like "Waltz for Daphne", "Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers", "If I Should Lose You", and "Dolphin Dance" from his acoustic records.

Spare me. There's is a difference between saying "Gary Peacock plays out of tune on ocassion" and saying "Gary Peacock looks like he got run over by a truck". The former is a comment on how he plays the bass, which is why we're all on this frickin board in the first place. The latter is a potshot that is mean and has no bearing on the discussion. Big difference.

If the remarks about GP's intonation were not potshots, then my reply doesn't apply to them. And for the record, although I am loathe to admit it, I was one of the ones to comment about Coltrane's playing painfully sharp (to my ears) on more than one record. That reflects more on me than on 'Trane because he's 'Trane and I'm just some HILLWILLIAM from KY.

D*mn. I'm all out of kittens.

I'm not.

Link Removed

 

[Marc Piane]

Jeez. I go away to practice for a few hours...


On another note I found a picture illustrating the different ways a popcorn kernel can pop. Enjoy.

 

[Mark Wilson]

 

[deaf pea]

Thank you. I'm also willing to bet that Ted Greene got some ideas from the classical tradition of virtuoso violin playing.

I don't know who (or what) exactly, inspired Ted Greene, but I AM pretty sure that he didn't invent the technique in a vacuum . . . he was building on the earlier work of others (as did EVH, too . . . building on the work of Ted Greene . . . )

 

[Audiophage]

The comment you quoted was based on a posted link an article about music snobs, with indie rock snobs being the bottom of pyrimid, jazz being the center, and free jazz being the top (the worst).

I come from punk rock and still listen to some. I just found a Sacchrinne Trust album I have been looking for for years...

Alright, fair enough. I did skim through the 3rd to 10th pages and took your words a little out of context. The statement still stands.