Double Bass Peacock Blows off Costello...

[TroyK]

A case can be made for Costello being arrogant enough to just assume anyone will play his music...

So many things to comment on. Starting with this one. Although I still contend that we don't know what happened, I'm certain that EC didn't show up at the Iridium and inform them that he was going to sit in. Someone made him think this was O.K.. Maybe the club owner, probably Lee Konitz, but it's not like he stumbled up on stage drunk and said "hey guys, can you play I Don't Want to go to Chelsea in Bb?"

2 - We're not all jazz snobs and many jazz players at all levels hate the instance of them as much as non-jazz people do. I met Paul Keller a few weeks ago and was fortunate to spend some time with him. Amazing, generous character and top notch jazz bass skills. He's a fine example of many many giving and gifted people in this community.

3 - I had not heard the Ray Charles comment until this thread and although it shocks and offends me, I'm not willing to jump to "Elvis Costello is a racist." It is difficult for me to believe that he is based on everything else he has written and said and Bramlett seems like a less than credible source. But probably he said something that he regrets, but didn't mean. That being said, he's not my hero, I expect him to be human and falliable. I don't even know if he is a human being that I like or not, because I don't pretend to know him. If for some reason I did have some kind of relationship with him, I would figure out what was in his heart and not read 8 year old press articles about drunken brawls.

Chris, can I get a kitty?

 

[Marc Piane]

This ceased to be about GP, EC, and Keithy-poo many moons ago IMO. It became more about art, professionalism, human relations, my own terrible intonation, kittens, boobs, etc. Like I have said there are very important and interesting questions that have been raised.

Forget this particular incident. We don't know the deets the GP/EC exchange or the racist comments of EC or anything. It is really easy to take any words out of context. We are in the midst of a presidential race right now. The spin doctors are experts at this.

The points that I am wrestling with are about placing levels on art, cutting good players more slack in term of common decency then bad ones, etc.

I honestly could really care less what style you play and if you are good or if you suck. If you are trying to improve, working hard, being true to yourself, having fun, and treating everyone with respect then I will hold you in high regard. Period.

As far as the statement "It's just music people."
Whenever we are about to go on stage and somebody starts to get nervous somebody else says "hey man, this isn't like brain surgery. Nobody is going to die if you f*** up." That's the way I took it.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

Yes, jazz generally tends to require a higher degree of technical skill, and is frequently much more sophisticated in its forms & expressions. But whether one finds these reasons sufficient in and of themselves to pronounce jazz the superior genre is very much a value judgment - one which is very much open to debate on the merits.

Jazz snobs are bad, it's true. But then again, so are classical snobs. And "punk rock", or indy alternative snobs? Some of the worst in the business, freaking nazis. Bluegrass snobs. Blues snobs. Free jazz snobs. Anti-snob snobs. It'll make your head spin if you let it.

If your music doesn't move a solitary soul then it ain't going nowhere. It dies with you. Doesn't matter how much work you did, how much respect you got or didn't get. Do it for love. Do it for money. But doing it because it's "correct" and "not wrong"? Ick.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

2 - We're not all jazz snobs and many jazz players at all levels hate the instance of them as much as non-jazz people do. I met Paul Keller a few weeks ago and was fortunate to spend some time with him. Amazing, generous character and top notch jazz bass skills. He's a fine example of many many giving and gifted people in this community.

True dat. Paul Keller is a world class player, and a world class dude from what I can tell. He did a master class here with Phil DeGreg a few years back, and he was all about THE JOY of playing, both in words and action. I know I learned a lot from the hang, and I'm pretty sure the students did, too.

Chris, can I get a kitty?

I do endeavor to give satisfaction, sir.

Link Removed

 

[TroyK]

True dat. Paul Keller is a world class player, and a world class dude from what I can tell. He did a master class here with Phil DeGreg a few years back, and he was all about THE JOY of playing, both in words and action. I know I learned a lot from the hang, and I'm pretty sure the students did, too.

Yes, "joy" is the perfect word. oozes joy for life, joy for music, joy for people he knows, joy for meeting new people. Watching him and Steve Wilson play in a piano trio was like watching to children playing in a sandbox, except that they were both highly talented.

 

[Marc Piane]

I heard the same thing about Milt Hinton. I have a couple friends that encountered him in different settings. All said the same. One of the best ever. One of the kindest, gentlest, most jovial people to ever walk to earth.

It always reminds me that sometimes the older badasses are some of the best people. Here in Chicago I have had the chance to play with several guys that have "been there done that". I played a gig a while back with a guy that toured for years with George Shearing. He also played with Marion McPartland, Patricia Barber, Buddy DeFranco and many others. I had never met the guy before but he is a well known name in Chicago. When I walked in the door to the gig (neddless to say I was nervous) he shook my hand and wanted to get a picture of the two of us together. When we got to a drum solo he wanted to trade 8s with me. One of the better musical experiences I've had and the joy oozed off the stage.

 

[damonsmith]

generally[/I] tends to require a higher degree of technical skill, and is frequently much more sophisticated in its forms & expressions. But whether one finds these reasons sufficient in and of themselves to pronounce jazz the superior genre is very much a value judgment - one which is very much open to debate on the merits.

I don't really find this to be true. I have an easier time walking through changes or playing complex free jazz than playing simple songs - because that is what feels natural to me, and the fact that I have ADD - and jazz and improvised music are able to hold my attention.
Also, I like a lot of art that is not always about skill, a painter who scribbles on the canvas or bass player just crackling the bow around.
Certainly ECs music takes much more technical skill than some of what I love.
I don't for one second lack respect for the level of precision it takes to play good rock or pop music.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

can I get a kitty?

I got yer cat right here.

 

[Blueszilla]

Is that legal?

 

[Uncletoad]

Is that legal?

Only in Hawaii.

In fact that is the rare Spamcat.

It's bread specifically for slaughter to make Spam in the Hawaiian islands.

Notice the lack of hair and generic genitalia. Decades of selective breeding right there.

All for the delight of the island palate.

 

[Mark Perna]

I think you miss my point. Though I have no idea whether you would consider yourself to be a "jazz snob", my point is that jazz snobs would tend to take exception to the notion that jazz is not necessarily superior to pop/rock - anymore than pop/rock is superior to jazz. They are simply different...

Yes, jazz generally tends to require a higher degree of technical skill, and is frequently much more sophisticated in its forms & expressions. But whether one finds these reasons sufficient in and of themselves to pronounce jazz the superior genre is very much a value judgment - one which is very much open to debate on the merits.

As for myself, while I value and respect the discipline of the craft and the form, there's much more than this alone that goes into forming my aesthetic impressions (i.e. content & message). I try to evaluate music of all genres by this same standard. Hence, jazz gets no free pass from me, simply because it is jazz...

MM

I know what you are saying and I agree with you. It takes different sets of skills to play different types of music. Just because I can play a million gnat notes through a 400 bpm bebop tune doesn't necessarily mean that I can lay a good eighth note, groovin' pop bassline down with any conviction, panache' or feel. It isn't the technical difficulty component that is of issue but understanding the nuances of the style and conveying them in an honest manner. This is true of all musics.

mark

 

[damonsmith]

So many things to comment on. Starting with this one. Although I still contend that we don't know what happened, I'm certain that EC didn't show up at the Iridium and inform them that he was going to sit in. Someone made him think this was O.K.. Maybe the club owner, probably Lee Konitz, but it's not like he stumbled up on stage drunk and said "hey guys, can you play I Don't Want to go to Chelsea in Bb?"

We also don't know all the facts on Peacock's end, yet everyone is ready to assume he was an Ass****, a turd of a human being, elitist and many other things.
I am not making a case that EC was arrogant, but pointing out it goes both ways.

 

[Marc Piane]

Forget this particular incident. We don't know the deets the GP/EC exchange or the racist comments of EC or anything. It is really easy to take any words out of context.

Jeez.

 

[TroyK]

We also don't know all the facts on Peacock's end, yet everyone is ready to assume he was an Ass****, a turd of a human being, elitist and many other things.

Actually, I haven't suggested any such thing about Peacock.

So, Damon, just out of curiousity. You said the Keith Jarrett's actions/methods/whatever seem to be working out fine for him and I challenged that, since he is being banned from festivals and (I assume losing fans) or at least sending some paying customers away disappointed.

Has this thread gone the way that you intended for it to when you started it? Were you looking for/expecting everyone to agree with you? Were you looking for a debate or what exactly?

Just curious. This is likely to be the thread that you're most remembered for on Talkbass for a while to come yet and I'm wondering if it's gone the way you intended. It's definitely the most colorful one we've had in a while. The fuzziest too, thanks to expert moderation.

I will say that I've admired the way you've kept your composure under assult. Have you been enjoying this, stressed out by it or just looking at it from an academic standpoint?

 

[damonsmith]

Actually, I haven't suggested any such thing about Peacock.

So, Damon, just out of curiousity. You said the Keith Jarrett's actions/methods/whatever seem to be working out fine for him and I challenged that, since he is being banned from festivals and (I assume losing fans) or at least sending some paying customers away disappointed.

Has this thread gone the way that you intended for it to when you started it? Were you looking for/expecting everyone to agree with you? Were you looking for a debate or what exactly?

Just curious. This is likely to be the thread that you're most remembered for on Talkbass for a while to come yet and I'm wondering if it's gone the way you intended. It's definitely the most colorful one we've had in a while. The fuzziest too, thanks to expert moderation.

I will say that I've admired the way you've kept your composure under assult. Have you been enjoying this, stressed out by it or just looking at it from an academic standpoint?

I didn't really have vision for the thread. It has been good see so many different views.
I did not expect many people to take Peacock's side. What was inspiring about it unfortunately is how rare people will actually take a stand about their music.
If your music is not important to you how can you ever expect anyone else to care? The most disturbing part of the the thread has been Michael Case reiterating how it is "Just music" and the other "It's not that big of a deal" type responses.
Tear Peacock and I apart all you want but please, have some self-respect.

As for Jarrett, that attitude has gotten him where he is, he dosen't need a another festival or more fans. IMO, festivals and fans are his problem.
Playing intimate piano trio music at those kinds of venues is probably a real drag. I think he would enjoy playing a lot more if he backed off on his fee enough to get back to much smaller, nice sounding room.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

I

As for Jarrett, that attitude has gotten him where he is,

Not in my book. I've enjoyed his playing for years, in spite of his being a prick. I've seen him act like a baby in public more than once. When he shuts the f*** up and plays, he's pretty good. But it sure isn't why I shelled out my hard-earned $$$ to see him. Most likely, I won't do it again.

 

[TroyK]

As for Jarrett, that attitude has gotten him where he is, he dosen't need a another festival or more fans. IMO, festivals and fans are his problem.

Well, then in the interest of returning to our discussion on how to conduct ourselves professionally, I guess I would suggest that it's probably not right for him to book himself to play festivals and take their money. Once he does, I think he takes on some responsibility.

Honestly I don't know much about him or Gary Peacock and I haven't wanted to particularly judge anyone here for things that I don’t fully understand. It's tough not to when you watch the You Tube of Jarrett, but I still don’t feel like I know or need to know what happened at the Iridium.

At any rate, there are all types in this business. I may not play the most complex music (although local indi pop guys think I do, so it's all relative), but to be honest, it's a pain in the ass to play the double bass. It's physically demanding, it's tough to move around town. They're fragile. They’re expensive. Every string on the market sucks. All the ones that aren’t quite on the market yet are magic, until they actually become available, then they suck too. They're tough to amplify. They're difficult to play in tune. It's not a good thing to try to do for a living. Club owners are usually people I would prefer not to have in my life. Other musicians are SOMETIMES people who I could do without in my life.

So, whether I'm playing The Jody Grind, Dancing Cheek to Cheek or Reincarnation of a Lovebird, I absolutely wouldn't do it if I didn't love it deep in the pit of my soul. I suspect it is the same for Gary Peacock with the music he makes and I'm as sure as I can be without asking him that it's the same for Elvis Costello with what he does.

It's one reason that I try to respect everyone who appears sincere...and isn't a dickhead. Sometimes people are dickheads and I can't help but respect them too. Sometimes people are insincere hacks, talent or not. Some people don't even like playing, but do it for money. Some of them happen to be talented. I strongly suspect that Michael Case loves playing music and what he’s saying doesn’t offend me, but I understand your objection to the words when you see them on your screen. Might be different if you were sitting down together talking, which I would suggest is probably not a good idea for you two.

I just finished Kurt Vonnegut's final memoirs. I don't have it with me to reference, but the last sentence in it is something like "what draws people to art is to see the artist struggle against his own limitations." I’ve been thinking about that a lot during this thread.

 

[Mark Perna]

I have to admit that I found his Perugia tantrum kind of funny in an "I'm cringing while watching this" kind of way. While he didn't quite go Michael Richards on the crowd, this will probably follow him for a while.

He seems to be a complete jerk but I love his playing and since I'm only peripherally interested in his personality and I'm never going to meet him, I'm still going to be buying his discs as they come out.

I've only had the opportunity to really get to know one of my heroes and that was Emily Remler. She moved to Pittsburgh in the '80s to try to kick a drug habit and moved in two doors down from me. Just prior to that, I had transcribed just about every note off her last two albums, Transistion and Catwalk (both with Eddie Gomez), so it was really exciting having the creator of my latest obsession become my neighbor. She was astonished that anyone knew her music so well. She was one of the sweetest people you'd ever meet. I learned a lot from her. I miss her every day.

mark

 

[TroyK]

She moved to Pittsburgh in the '80s to try to kick a drug habit and moved in two doors down from me. Just prior to that, I had transcribed just about every note off her last two albums, Transistion and Catwalk (both with Eddie Gomez), so it was really exciting having the creator of my latest obsession become my neighbor. She was astonished that anyone knew her music so well. She was one of the sweetest people you'd ever meet. I learned a lot from her. I miss her every day.

mark

Wow, what a great story. I'm not really a believer in an actively working hand of fate, but if she came to Pittsburgh to get herself back on track, I'm sure that finding herself in immediate proximity to someone who felt that way about her seemed like a gift to her.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Every string on the market sucks.

Except Dominants, of course. And Spiro starks. Those rule.

I just finished Kurt Vonnegut's final memoirs. I don't have it with me to reference, but the last sentence in it is something like "what draws people to art is to see the artist struggle against his own limitations." I’ve been thinking about that a lot during this thread.

I'm reading "Bluebeard" for about the third time, and I'd just like to add that nobody* cusses out a jazz audience like Dan Gregory.

Back on topic, I don't care what the people whose music I love are like in person. To me, those are two seperate and distinct things. I can love the player and think the person is a hosebag (or vice versa) without losing any sleep any day of the week. That said, it makes it that much more special when somebody measures up on both sides of the fence.









*(not even Jarrett)