Perhaps a stupid question; what's the lower horn for?

[Terpodion]

I have been pondering body design, gearing up to building a bass - or two, or more. In case you haven't read my introduction, I'm a pipe organ builder who plays bass. I have a shop full of tools, the milling machine being the largest, weighing in at just over a ton. I can build just about anything I want.

I made a body some years ago and never fitted it with a neck and finished the project. That's how I am. I get sidetracked easily. It's a form of OCD, but I know my quirks, deal with them and I'm hot on bass guitars again. It's a fairly typical design, like P-Bass, perhaps a bit exaggerated. It'll get fitted with a 5 string neck and the rest of the gear soon.

But I'm thinking a bit out of the box now, did some research into "head dive" and would like to find an "ideal" body design - at least for me. The function of the upper horn is obvious; to attach the strap to, to acheive a balance point so the head will not fall when you take your hands off the neck. I can see no use for the lower horn. Appearance?

I have always admired John Entwistle's "Boris The Spider" bass - a fancy Explorer design, with the long lower portion for the right forearm to rest on. It's seriously cool looking but it's also seriously unbalanced with next to no upper horn. Warwick made the Dolphin which is more what I'm thinking of in terms of a balanced body, but there is a vestigial nub of the lower horn. Why? I can't for the life of me figure out what function the lower horn serves.

 

[Eric ER]

It’s so the bass doesn’t fall off your lap when you sit down to play.

 

[Stumbo]

I have been pondering body design, gearing up to building a bass - or two, or more. In case you haven't read my introduction, I'm a pipe organ builder who plays bass. I have a shop full of tools, the milling machine being the largest, weighing in at just over a ton. I can build just about anything I want.

I made a body some years ago and never fitted it with a neck and finished the project. That's how I am. I get sidetracked easily. It's a form of OCD, but I know my quirks, deal with them and I'm hot on bass guitars again. It's a fairly typical design, like P-Bass, perhaps a bit exaggerated. It'll get fitted with a 5 string neck and the rest of the gear soon.

But I'm thinking a bit out of the box now, did some research into "head dive" and would like to find an "ideal" body design - at least for me. The function of the upper horn is obvious; to attach the strap to, to acheive a balance point so the head will not fall when you take your hands off the neck. I can see no use for the lower horn. Appearance?

I have always admired John Entwistle's "Boris The Spider" bass - a fancy Explorer design, with the long lower portion for the right forearm to rest on. It's seriously cool looking but it's also seriously unbalanced with next to no upper horn. Warwick made the Dolphin which is more what I'm thinking of in terms of a balanced body, but there is a vestigial nub of the lower horn. Why? I can't for the life of me figure out what function the lower horn serves.

The lower horn is there so you don't have to reach as far for the upper horn.

Vox Teardrop bass?

 

[farace]

Just like why cars have two horns. It's for tone.




{Sorry, it's late and I couldn't help myself. }

 

[mapleglo]

It’s so the bass doesn’t fall off your lap when you sit down to play.

This. I once played a Flying V guitar. Seated, I couldn't play it because it would slide off my leg. Never played one again.

 

[Terpodion]

Yeah, flying V's look cool but that's about it. As far as sitting down, the horn itself is not necessary, just the right shape in the lower portion of the body. Taking this all into consideration...

 

[Terpodion]

I think I might get a chunk of foam or balsa, mount a neck on it and start carving with a rasp.

 

[Stumbo]

I think I might get a chunk of foam or balsa, mount a neck on it and start carving with a rasp.

I think Leo already did that.

Pics would be good.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

If you are thinking of pure function, look at the notches that are removed. There's the knee notch, which is the arc-shaped notch on the bottom edge which rests on your knee when sitting. It keeps the bass from sliding around on your knee, and is far enough down from the strings that you can play without hunching over. Ideally, it's positioned lengthwise so that the bass balances on the knee. Not neck heavy or neck light. That usually puts it about centered on the heel of the neck.

Then there's the lower cutaway, which is a notch out of the body right next to the neck, to allow good hand access to the fingerboard all the way to the heel. That notch has to be big enough that you don't hit the back of your knuckles against the body when reaching for the last fret on the lowest string.

The lower horn is what's left over once you've cut the knee notch and the cutaway. You need it if you want to have a comfortable knee notch and cutaway clearance.

Sure, you can leave it off and declare that your bass is only made to be played standing up. But if you are trying to sell it to customers, the majority of them will not buy a bass that isn't reasonably comfortable to play sitting down.

 

[Bassbeater]

Thigh catcher and cutaway

 

[HaMMerHeD]

Bruce Is exactly right.


It needs to be long enough to play comfortably while sitting, and deep enough for comfortable upper fret access.

It's the latter, in my opinion, where most designs fail.

 

[farace]

Partly to atone for my smartass comment last night, and partly to add illustration to previous comments, I'll note that when luthiers take a reductio ad absurdum approach to instruments, they usually end up having to make some kind of accommodation anyway for player comfort/usability. Steinberger provided a flip-out leg rest, Flying Vs had a rubber friction strip, etc.

And don't discount aesthetics. It could be argued that it simply looks better to have something there visually balancing the upper horn.

Then there is the La Baye 2x4, neither aesthetically nor ergonomically pleasing (unless you're Devo).

 

[gln1955]

I have found that my Jaguar, which has an abbreviated lower horn, tends to be less stable than P or J body. I have to keep my thigh right in the lower body curve.

 

[RiffwRiter]

Then there is the La Baye 2x4, neither aesthetically nor ergonomically pleasing (unless you're Devo).

That looks like a 4-string lap steel guitar.

 

[Gully Foyle]

The key to flying v seated is that your leg goes in the crook of the v

 

[Coolhandjjl]

Think violin, then viola, cello, etc. Picture them upright. All have an upper bout and a lower bout (and a left and right as well) The Spanish guitar, the granddaddy of modern guitars, had a similar shape, an upper and lower bout, (plus left and right as well).

The first cutaways on a guitar were on the upper right bout to gain access to more frets. Once that right side of the upper bout was ‘cut away’, all that remained was what we call a horn. Same thing on many guitars upper left bout is done as well. (Tele’s and Les Paul’s are examples of mainstream models with only one cutaway.)

There. Now you know why a guitar is shaped the way it is.

 

[Sixgunn]

Yeah, flying V's look cool but that's about it. As far as sitting down, the horn itself is not necessary, just the right shape in the lower portion of the body. Taking this all into consideration...

I have 4 Flying Vs and they are super comfortable to play, sitting down

 

[Wfrance3]

Far as Jaguar bass, and non reverse thunderbird bass, nothing at all...

I imagine it's to balance aesthetics, and also for balancing the instrument. There are plenty of posts all over TB about people that are looking for a solution to "neck dive" . In lots of cases it's instruments that have a non-lower horn configuration. Standard Thunderbird is the one i see a lot...

 

[bassdude51]

It keeps your bass "horny".

 

[Terpodion]

Didn't think of that aspect of the V. Looks like it works. I'm not sure I could make it work for me though. I tend to sit with my legs spread, like a big 'ol ape.