Pick Downstrokes vs. Down/Up---Can You Tell?

[ThudThudThud]

Bobby Vega has excellent style in picking up and down. He can make either sound exactly how he wants it to sound.

 

[dr doofie]

So this has been an ongoing controversy on Talkbass for a while now. People on here, especially those who play rock styles, say that downstrokes with a pick always sound different and more consistent than strict down/up. I say that's a load of crap, as I believe that if you want your down/up picking to sound more consistent, you need to practice till you can't tell the difference, and you'll make it happen if you practice it enough. I also consider straight downpicking at medium tempos and faster to be very detrimental to the health of your picking hand. I can't do it longer than 30 seconds at a time before my hand starts to feel like it's going to fall off. Best I can do with all downstrokes is a walking jazz line with everything hitting on the beat, and even those get challenging when the tempo picks up. Maybe when I was 20 or 30 I could do it. Wish I still could. It certainly looks much cooler onstage. But since 40 came and went, those days are long over.

And still, people argue with me about it, and dare I say, some people who should know better. Folks, you can do anything with practice. That's all it takes. If you can do upstrokes at all, you can do it. And if you can't do upstrokes, time to learn them before you need hand and wrist surgery.

Or maybe I've got my head up my butt and you guys are right. Maybe you really CAN tell. Welp, here's your chance to prove me wrong (or right). I just cut two tracks, one all downstrokes, one all down/up. All you have to do is pick which track is all downstrokes. Your options are A, B and carrots, meaning you can't tell the difference. If a far greater number of people pick the right one, then I'll stop saying it's possible. But it's got to be a pretty wide margin, otherwise I'll think everyone's just flipping a coin, and I shall continue waving the down/up flag. Or pick as it were.

TECH NOTES:

---Signal Path---

Hammersmith PJ with EMG Geezer PJ's, P on full, J off, tone knob up all the way, newish Dunlop Super Bright Nickel rounds, played with Dunlop Max Grip 1.5 mm, into a Tech 21 VT Deluxe set dead clean and flat just to eliminate those tweeter frequencies I hate, into an A Designs REDDI, a Fast Track C400 interface, and Cakewalk. Absolutely no effects were used, and that includes compression.

Played a short bit of 3 popular songs, "Blitzkrieg Bop" by the Ramones, "Shoot To Thrill" by AC/DC, and "Black Velvet" by Allanah Myles. Don't know what possessed me to play that last one, but too late to change it now.

Anyway, I'll give it up to 3 days before I post results, but I may post them after a couple days depending on how many votes we get. I'm looking forward to everyone's comments. Good luck!

How you worded your post is what decided me ultimately...
There is not much difference, but the tone and attack change slightly on the upstroke. Not due to your technique; your control actually is awesome
You keep it as close as possible to the same. My ears hear a slightly softer dynamic on the upstroke, particularly on Shoot to Thrill. But I as well may have my head up my butt who knows.

 

[GBBSbassist]

So while most of you were right that you could tell my downstrokes from my down/ups, I say big deal The difference isn't big enough to warrant possible surgery over your measley little punk rock song. Unless you pay quad scale. Then I'll think about it.

I could tell the difference in less than 5 seconds without even going from A to B and back. I listened to a few seconds of each one, A first, and then B.

That said, I only even checked out the thread because of the claim you made in the other thread about how you didn't believe anyone could tell the difference.

There's not a huge difference though.

 

[TinIndian]

I think it doesn't make a darn difference in a mix from the crowds point of view. I dare any of you to find ANYONE in a crowd that is not a musician and even musicians that aren't looking that can tell in the middle of a song that you are picking all downstrokes or alternating. And lets not forget that the CROWD is what matters the most.

It's funny we spend so much time wrapped up in nuances that won't even get heard.

 

[sgtpepper]

I completely agree with you, Jimmy. I've always found downstrokes to be painful. I widely prefer the up/down technique when playing with a pick.

 

[Rob Martinez]

I prefer to play downstrokes only for consistency, and ease when singing and playing but sometimes use down/up when it is too fast for the former.

Audience doesn't care, nor do other musicians.

 

[murphy]

A is up and down
B all down strokes....sorry I was late to the party

 

[jeff62]

I didn’t listen and didn’t vote. I’m with Jimmy in principle. If you can tell, it may be because the picker has a less strict technique that creates a different sound (eg maybe they are effectively holding the pick at an angle on the up stroke). Otherwise it’s indiscernible.

 

[murphy]

. I don't think *anyone* would notice in a mix. Let alone live. Unless I was shooting a video or something (heaven forbid hehe) I would totally alternate pick. Having said *that* I can't play with a pick anyway
Mike

I notice when I see the Stranglers play now JJ plays up and down , but has lost the aggression of the 70s version of those songs.
I understand...we are all getting old

 

[Panek]

That Blitzkrieg Bop line is played wrong though.

I do both styles myself. In my bands we alternate between Poison Idea/GBH style hardcore and then some Ramones/Sex Pistols/Stranglers tempos. So lightning fast up/down-strokes for the former, downstrokes for the latter.

Oh and BTW: Dee Dee Ramone played upstrokes too.

 

[Inky13]

I hear Yanni.

 

[Stevorebob]

Had you posted only one, the up-down version, I wonder if we could identify whether it was up-down or all down strokes.

 

[Ghook]

As a pick player, alt picking is how I can up tempo with less effort than just downstroke. Actually I never really thought about it so maybe there is no reason other than it's how I have always done it.

 

[MCS4]

I think there are some types of parts where downpicking is always going to sound better and it is practically impossible to truly match the feel with alternative picking (at least so far as I've seen/heard to date). However, the part in the clips is not that type of part, and I would never have argued that someone needs to play that part with downpicks.

 

[Honkey tonk]

So true that most if any could really tell the difference, to someone that is particular to there sound it does matter , all those nuances add up .

 

[MrMoT]

Obviously track A is with up/down

 

[JimmyM]

Regarding health...

All downstrokes: Pepper Keenan. Pretty sure he has had no wrist injuries in several decades of somewhat high bpm all DS playing.

All alternative picking: Dave Mustane. Nearly lost all use of his picking hand in the early 2000s.

They are guitarists, not bassists. Guitars are more forgiving for the most part.

 

[LowActionHero]

I also voted B as downstrokes, although it wasn't totally obvious. And wouldn't join the 'downstrokes only' camp.

 

[Lesfunk]

I can only tell when I do it because my technique sucks

 

[JimmyM]

And what do you think about the "Waving down strokes"?
When you stroke down, moving the pick progressively from neck to bridge; inside the time of a full measure and you go back toward the neck position when next measure start, so the tone waves between measures.
[this is for simple rock bass lines made of just root notes]

Never tried it. I tend to not go by the bridge too much, though, since there's less tension on the strings between the pickup and neck.