• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Players that won't learn a note

one thing I can say is: they don't reproduce every note faithfully

I didn't say nor imply that one has to reproduce every note. I'm not trying to nit-pick your post but just to clarify - there's a world of difference between conveying the gist of a song by playing signature parts in a recognizable fashion, versus robotically reproducing every note, versus simply playing the chord tones and adding your own inventions. IMO (can't stress that enough) the latter is probably going to sound wrong to most folks familiar with the song. And that's why we play these tunes, because people know and like them.

Sure, some people are going to enjoy a different take on a song if it's done extremely well. But I would suggest they're in a minority, and that most people are going to appreciate hearing what they know and expect.

Re: original artist performing their songs, you can also make the argument that the original artist can play their song anyway they choose, and it's never wrong.. because they're the original artist. However as a cover band, we have a certain duty to not make someone go "*** was that??" IN MY OPINION.
 
I didn't say nor imply that one has to reproduce every note. I'm not trying to nit-pick your post but just to clarify - there's a world of difference between conveying the gist of a song by playing signature parts in a recognizable fashion, versus robotically reproducing every note, versus simply playing the chord tones and adding your own inventions. IMO (can't stress that enough) the latter is probably going to sound wrong to most folks familiar with the song.

Oh fully agreed! Years ago I was in a band with my dad on vocals. We were gonna play Easy Livin by Uriah Heep which has a fast twiddly part that kind of defines the song. Guitarist who suggested the song, couldn't play it and asked if it was necessary. Ehm, yes. But dad and I quit when he didn't get the intro to ZZ Top's Tush right.

It's one thing to play different solos and put your own twist on songs, but some parts are essential to the song. Either learn them or don't suggest them to begin with :banghead:
 
Oh fully agreed! Years ago I was in a band with my dad on vocals. We were gonna play Easy Livin by Uriah Heep which has a fast twiddly part that kind of defines the song. Guitarist who suggested the song, couldn't play it and asked if it was necessary. Ehm, yes. But dad and I quit when he didn't get the intro to ZZ Top's Tush right.

It's one thing to play different solos and put your own twist on songs, but some parts are essential to the song. Either learn them or don't suggest them to begin with :banghead:
We played that back in the day. Our guitarist picked it right up. It’s not difficult song at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EddiePlaysBass
[Warning: a long, but moderately well-written post]

I'm not mad at you or anything, it just seemed like you're assigning willful ignorance to people like myself who might have different reasons for not knowing the same things you know. If I misread that, please accept my apologies.

Not 'willful ignorance', it seems more like fear of something that isn't that scary.

What I was trying to say is that respect matters. My experience is that the Staple Singers were correct, that people and society in general will give you no more respect than you give to yourself.

I have no knowledge about FVH's actual level of musical knowledge. But I do know that a whole lot of that "weeze too stoopid" pose that many pro musicians adopt is just marketing, and is about as true as this wall of amps:

WallOfAmps2.jpeg


The actuality is that there's a whole lot of mental activity involved in playing music. They've given musicians small plastic keyboards and put them in fMRI machines, which can measure blood flow and mental activity in the brain. Listening to music that you like invokes a lot of mental activity, playing along with music lights up even more of your brain, and improvising a solo over that music lights up almost every region of the brain like a Christmas tree. Improvising music is the most all-consuming brain activity that they've found. (As far as I know they haven't tried to measure our brains on sex yet. It would be quite difficult in an fMRI.) That is why playing music can be so much fun - it's tickling our brain all over.

We store most of our musical knowledge in our subconscious mind. We have to, because the subconscious is much faster and more powerful than the conscious. A big part of why we practice is to automate and store that information there so we can use it later. You practice something and before long it takes little-or-no conscious thought to play it. But there's still the same amount of 'thought' going on as before (the fMRI proves it), you've just moved it from the conscious mind to the subconscious. It becomes automated, like walking.

Doctors, lawyers, and engineers also have to practice to get good. New lawyers lose almost all of their cases, doctors in residence usually make mistakes that kill 2-3 people before they become good, and fresh-out engineers are almost useless their first year. All have to practice to move the skills they learned in school with their conscious mind into their subconscious. That's why experienced doctors, lawyers, and engineers can zoom in on the main issues and not get overwhelmed by unimportant info.
-----------
I once loaded up my gear, drove an hour, played the gig, and then had the club manager say "You guys were great! You really had the place hopping! But the crowd didn't come in 'til later so I can't afford to pay you anything. How about you come back on Lady's Night next week and do it again?"

The beer distributor got paid, the liqueur seller got paid, the bartenders got paid, the waitresses got paid, the landlord got paid, the ice delivery got paid, the utilities got paid, the people who made the napkins and plastic cups got paid, the people who pick up the trash got paid, and the club almost certainly has a lawyer on retainer. Why is the band the only one whose payment is optional and left to the whim of the manager?

The night that Asleep At The Wheel won their first Grammy, they heard about it while having problems getting paid for that night's gig, trying to locate the invisible club manager.

As a friend of mine said "If the music industry is a circus parade, why are the musicians always the ones marching right behind the elephants?".
------------
So when we say that we played something 'without thinking' or 'instinct' or we play this "don't know nuffin" pose, most of our society doesn't understand that we played something using primarily subconscious knowledge. What they hear and understand is that we operate at the level of dumb animals and so give us the same amount of respect. The popular image of a rock musician is a lot closer to someone like Axl Rose and Steven Tyler than it is to Robert Fripp, Tony Levin, or Bill Bruford.

Notice how musicians who primarily play music composed in the 18th and 19th centuries don't do this. You never hear a classical musician doing that 'weeze so stoopid' act, they afford themselves some respect for what they do. And they get paid accordingly. Pre-pandemic many people who played in orchestras were making around $130K between performances, rehearsals and lessons. More in larger cities, more for section leaders, much more for conductors, etc. That's a bit more scratch than most people who play music composed in the 20th century make, at least where I live.
-----
Respect matters. And in the U.S. respect is closely tied to compensation. If we act like our craft is trivial and easy, the greater society won't respect it either. I think the knowledge stored in our subconscious should count too, just like a doctor, engineer, or lawyer, because we worked hard to put it there. And I think applying that knowledge correctly deserves respect and compensation.
 
Last edited:
Spot-on! Give me someone with HS band experience (irrespective of instrument) and we'll go far. As it stands, I have to write-out these over simplified charts as we're operating on 4 different levels...but not anymore.
Riis

Yeah, I arrived at music school without going through the HS jazz/lab band experience first and it was an enormous handicap disadvantage.
Plus, players w/ HS band experience usually understand that band rehearsal is not an excuse to get drunk, wasted, play the same old songs over and over again, or tweedle endlessly.
 
Last edited:
[Warning: a long, but moderately well-written post]



Not 'willful ignorance', it seems more like fear of something that isn't that scary.

Respect matters. My experience is that the Staple Singers were correct, that people and society in general will give you no more respect than you give to yourself.

I have no knowledge about FVH's actual level of musical knowledge. But I do know that a whole lot of that "weeze too stoopid" pose that many pro musicians adopt is just marketing, and is about as true as this wall of amps:

View attachment 5138700

The actuality is that there's a whole lot of mental activity involved in playing music. They've given musicians small plastic keyboards and put them in fMRI machines, which can measure blood flow and mental activity in the brain. Listening to music that you like invokes a lot of mental activity, playing along with music lights up even more of your brain, and improvising a solo over that music lights up almost every region of the brain like a Christmas tree. Improvising music is the most all-consuming brain activity that they've found. (As far as I know they haven't tried to measure our brains on sex yet. It would be quite difficult in an fMRI.) That is why playing music can be so much fun - it's tickling our brain all over.

We store most of our musical knowledge in our subconscious mind. We have to, because the subconscious is much faster and more powerful than the conscious. A big part of why we practice is to automate and store that information there so we can use it later. You practice something and before long it takes little-or-no conscious thought to play it. But there's still the same amount of 'thought' going on as before (the fMRI proves it), you've just moved it from the conscious mind to the subconscious. It becomes automated, like walking.

Doctors, lawyers, and engineers also have to practice to get good. New lawyers lose almost all of their cases, doctors in residence usually make mistakes that kill 2-3 people before they become good, and fresh-out engineers are almost useless their first year. All have to practice to move the skills they learned in school with their conscious mind into their subconscious. That's why experienced doctors, lawyers, and engineers can zoom in on the main issues and not get overwhelmed by unimportant info.
-----------
I once loaded up my gear, drove an hour, played the gig, and then had the club manager say "You guys were great! You really had the place hopping! But the crowd didn't come in 'til later so I can't afford to pay you anything. How about you come back on Lady's Night next week and do it again?"

The beer distributor got paid, the liqueur seller got paid, the bartenders got paid, the waitresses got paid, the landlord got paid, the ice delivery got paid, the utilities got paid, the people who made the napkins and plastic cups got paid, the people who pick up the trash got paid, and the club almost certainly has a lawyer on retainer. Why is the band the only one whose payment is optional and left to the whim of the manager?

The night that Asleep At The Wheel won their first Grammy, they heard about it while having problems getting paid for that night's gig, trying to locate the invisible club manager.

As a friend of mine said "If the music industry is a circus parade, why are the musicians always the ones marching right behind the elephants?".
------------
So when we say that we played something 'without thinking' or 'instinct' or we play this "don't know nuffin" pose, most of our society doesn't understand that we played something using primarily subconscious knowledge. What they hear and understand is that we operate at the level of dumb animals and so give us the same amount of respect. The popular image of a rock musician is a lot closer to someone like Axl Rose and Steven Tyler than it is to Robert Fripp, Tony Levin, or Bill Bruford.

Notice how musicians who primarily play music composed in the 18th and 19th centuries don't do this. You never hear a classical musician doing that 'weeze so stoopid' act, they afford themselves some respect for what they do. And they get paid accordingly. Pre-pandemic many people who played in orchestras were making around $130K between performances, rehearsals and lessons. More in larger cities, more for section leaders, much more for conductors, etc. That's a bit more scratch than most people who play music composed in the 20th century make, at least where I live.
-----
Respect matters. And in the U.S. respect is closely tied to compensation. If we act like our craft is trivial and easy, the greater society won't respect it either. I think the knowledge stored in our subconscious should count too, just like a doctor, engineer, or lawyer, because we worked hard to put it there. And I think applying that knowledge correctly deserves respect and compensation.

To that last point though, I think there's more to it though. Also, there's the "boohoo, I trudged a bass uphill downstairs to a basement barefoot 12 miles both directions and liked it" bootstraps folks anytime "deserve" comes up. I have had the discussion before about "Easy, trivial, respect". More often than not there's this perception that "Oh, you guys are talented. It's easy for you. Why should we pay you to have fun". I don't know why sticks in my craw so hard but I can't stand that it gets attributed to "talent" so often. Yeah, there is such a thing. Natural aptitude exists in the world for sure, but I think it really steals away the effort it takes to get anywhere. My special lady and I had this discussion over the weekend when she asked what I thought about those pictures of people like Michael Jackson or Whitney Houston as young'ns where "you just know they were going to make it". I think it's horrifically reductive to say MJ was just going to "make it" as if he didn't start singing at 5 around '63 and bust his rump before hitting it big teaming up with Quincy Jones in '79. It's frankly insulting to act like "oh, yeah he was just totally gonna make it cause....talent". I've had people say it to me after shows. "Oh your so talented!!". No, I sucked haaaaaaard for about half a decade and then spent the following 8 years trying even harder. I was not "talented". It did not "come easy". I worked at it for years and still am.

practice.png
 
Natural aptitude exists in the world for sure, but I think it really steals away the effort it takes to get anywhere.
Not quite. People with natural aptitude still need to practice. You can't learn how to do a technical thing if you don't do the technical thing, and you can't get really good at the technical thing unless you do a lot of it. This is true for everyone and it's a complete misunderstanding to suggest that there are people out here who were shot out of the womb able to play piano concertos. There aren't.

There are savants, for sure, but even they spend time working to get better. If you listen to them, what they do is impressive but often unrefined, probably because they haven't done so much practice yet. It's a silly thing to believe that some of us out here never needed to practice in order to earn our place as musicians. Whether or not a person practices has little bearing on their level of natural ability but it has a great deal of bearing on what they're able to accomplish, using that ability as a starting point.
 
Not quite. People with natural aptitude still need to practice. You can't learn how to do a technical thing if you don't do the technical thing, and you can't get really good at the technical thing unless you do a lot of it. This is true for everyone and it's a complete misunderstanding to suggest that there are people out here who were shot out of the womb able to play piano concertos. There aren't.

There are savants, for sure, but even they spend time working to get better. If you listen to them, what they do is impressive but often unrefined, probably because they haven't done so much practice yet. It's a silly thing to believe that some of us out here never needed to practice in order to earn our place as musicians. Whether or not a person practices has little bearing on their level of natural ability but it has a great deal of bearing on what they're able to accomplish, using that ability as a starting point.

I agree. I'm saying when folks 'chock it up to talent', or say that someone just has a natural aptitude, that it ignores that talent will only take you so far. My close friend in high school could pick up instruments and learn them at a speed I just couldn't comprehend. He absolutely has aptitude. The thing nobody in the crowd at the gig saw though is that every day when we weren't at school and were hanging out he had an instrument in his lap. Playing video games, editing home movies, or just sitting around telling jokes? Guitar in his lap. 8 or more hours every single day. More on weekends. He wasn't just "going to be one of those people". He worked, and worked hard at it.

His work ethic is/was unparalleled. When we were writing together in college and I had slept through my alarm I woke up to him standing over me with an acoustic guitar in hand, playing the songs we were going to be writing more of and rehearsing. He broke into my apartment, started playing the music and when I woke up he just said "It's time for practice. Lets go". Guy is just unreal.
 
Not quite. People with natural aptitude still need to practice. You can't learn how to do a technical thing if you don't do the technical thing, and you can't get really good at the technical thing unless you do a lot of it. This is true for everyone and it's a complete misunderstanding to suggest that there are people out here who were shot out of the womb able to play piano concertos. There aren't.

There are savants, for sure, but even they spend time working to get better. If you listen to them, what they do is impressive but often unrefined, probably because they haven't done so much practice yet. It's a silly thing to believe that some of us out here never needed to practice in order to earn our place as musicians. Whether or not a person practices has little bearing on their level of natural ability but it has a great deal of bearing on what they're able to accomplish, using that ability as a starting point.
Practice makes perfect. I've seen my boy's latest video. He's playing guitar to a recording of a pop song, with a friend singing the words. The guitar is his well-known high-speed twiddling, too fast for the song, wrong feel and wrong key. I should say 'keys', as he wanders from fret to fret and from one wrong key to another. His hours of practising bad breaks has made him highly skilled at playing garbage. I meet folk that talk of his wayward playing. We've not known anything like him. I hope he truly is one of a kind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LBS-bass
Practice makes perfect. I've seen my boy's latest video. He's playing guitar to a recording of a pop song, with a friend singing the words. The guitar is his well-known high-speed twiddling, too fast for the song, wrong feel and wrong key. I should say 'keys', as he wanders from fret to fret and from one wrong key to another. His hours of practising bad breaks has made him highly skilled at playing garbage. I meet folk that talk of his wayward playing. We've not known anything like him. I hope he truly is one of a kind.
Oh dear... that's a different kind of practice, for sure. I guess this is where having a good ear would help you realize that what you're doing isn't great.

I've always been told that you stop and start over when you make a mistake in practice, otherwise you're just practicing your mistakes. I know a lot of people who will just blow through and keep going, because that's what you have to do when you flub something onstage. Not sure which one is better but I tend to stop because I need to flag the stuff I know I'm doing wrong and practice doing it right instead.
 
Oh dear... that's a different kind of practice, for sure. I guess this is where having a good ear would help you realize that what you're doing isn't great.

I've always been told that you stop and start over when you make a mistake in practice, otherwise you're just practicing your mistakes. I know a lot of people who will just blow through and keep going, because that's what you have to do when you flub something onstage. Not sure which one is better but I tend to stop because I need to flag the stuff I know I'm doing wrong and practice doing it right instead.
He can't tell when he's getting it wrong. I've been learning to do lead breaks. I start by going to the first note a the key and play notes from the scale. There's nothing limiting about knowing theory.

On the other hand, my bass-player son was jamming one time. The band played a Malmsteen song. He was lost until he asked for the key. It was E, so he played a 12 bar in E. The guitarist afterwards said in some awe 'It shouldn't have worked, but it did'.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MCF
He can't tell when he's getting it wrong. I've been learning to do lead breaks. I start by going to the first note a the key and play notes from the scale. There's nothing limiting about knowing theory.

On the other hand, my bass-player son was jamming one time. The band played a Malmsteen song. He was lost until he asked for the key. It was E, so he played a 12 bar in E. The guitarist afterwards said in some awe 'It shouldn't have worked, but it did'.
Well there is the idea that practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent (the things you practice). I have a tin ear for tone and for key, but I have had a lot of help and guidance over the years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LBS-bass
Rule 101, imv. Listen.
No one knows it all and not many are 100% original so we all got influenced somewhere.
How well we can listen is an aptitude or talent in itself because you have to make sense of what you are hearing. Various people definitely hear the same thing differently.

Then, as I did, join a proper function band at 17 with a full book and learn what you should and should not do. I didn't learn anything musical from them but I learnt a whole load of what it takes to be a useful musician and they were lifelong lessons.

There is musical knowledge and then there is other stuff you have to be aware of. And I think the greatest prep was actually the life experience. No one put that in a book or lesson.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EddiePlaysBass
I didn't say nor imply that one has to reproduce every note. I'm not trying to nit-pick your post but just to clarify - there's a world of difference between conveying the gist of a song by playing signature parts in a recognizable fashion, versus robotically reproducing every note, versus simply playing the chord tones and adding your own inventions. IMO (can't stress that enough) the latter is probably going to sound wrong to most folks familiar with the song. And that's why we play these tunes, because people know and like them.

Sure, some people are going to enjoy a different take on a song if it's done extremely well. But I would suggest they're in a minority, and that most people are going to appreciate hearing what they know and expect.

Re: original artist performing their songs, you can also make the argument that the original artist can play their song anyway they choose, and it's never wrong.. because they're the original artist. However as a cover band, we have a certain duty to not make someone go "*** was that??" IN MY OPINION.

Oh fully agreed! Years ago I was in a band with my dad on vocals. We were gonna play Easy Livin by Uriah Heep which has a fast twiddly part that kind of defines the song. Guitarist who suggested the song, couldn't play it and asked if it was necessary. Ehm, yes. But dad and I quit when he didn't get the intro to ZZ Top's Tush right.

It's one thing to play different solos and put your own twist on songs, but some parts are essential to the song. Either learn them or don't suggest them to begin with :banghead:
I've come to the realization that the guitarists in the band I'm in, while being good players, will not, due to either lack or interest or lack of ability, learn the signature licks on most of the songs we play. Sure, they can and will play the intros to Tush and Gimme 3 Steps and stuff like that, but to learn signature solos or even licks beyond that?, nope. So I have to accept that till I can't any more.
 
I've come to the realization that the guitarists in the band I'm in, while being good players, will not, due to either lack or interest or lack of ability, learn the signature licks on most of the songs we play. Sure, they can and will play the intros to Tush and Gimme 3 Steps and stuff like that, but to learn signature solos or even licks beyond that?, nope. So I have to accept that till I can't any more.

I care less about signature solos, but some licks and riffs NEED to be there. Period.

I am not in a band right now, and frankly for the time being I don't think I want to be. I plan on retraining myself - there's a level of sloppiness that creeped into my playing, and my "go-to licks" are a bit stale.

But when I do rejoin a band, by Jove, I will be more strict about who I will play with. I have a tendency to stay in the same circles and frankly, I know I outplay most of them. Not based on talent, but I put in the time to actually practice and go over agreed-upon tunes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MoireBass and 51PRI
in the early 2000s, ariex and i tried out a rhythm guitar player. ariex always tunes down a full step and i always played in drop D. the guy couldn't figure that out - he stayed tuned in standard, well, more or less turned, and what we played with him sounded truly awful as he always fretted where he saw ariex fretting. he couldn't figure out that we were turned lower, and although i told him before we started playing, it didn't seem to register. he asked us to play with him again, and the same thing happened.

btw, we were playing grunge covers that he said he learned from the albums. yet we were playing in the exact key as the songs. the weird part is that he knew all the changes and exactly how to play them in the wrong key.

I have played with several guitar players that could not identify a single note, but were extremely talented. They just learned to play by ear and got very good.

not only have i played with some like that - i married one of them LOL
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: LBS-bass and MCF
But I would suggest they're in a minority, and that most people are going to appreciate hearing what they know and expect.
Never mess with the signature line.
but to learn signature solos or even licks beyond that?, nope.
I care less about signature solos, but some licks and riffs NEED to be there. Period.

My main influential period was the late '70s through mid '80s. Here in the UK there was ne'er a straight cover to be heard on the radio. Every band was putting out their own takes on great '50s and '60s songs. You might get a hint at the theme and the main tunes were largely respected, but the note for note covers were not the done thing. It takes a lot of effort to come up with a good original arrangement that remains respectful. Whilst acknowledging the hard work and time required, I also think that the note-for-note thing is something we can grow through. Not everyone doing their own thing is incapable - some will have left the rote recital behind a long time ago.

YMMV


Then, as I did, join a proper function band at 17 with a full book

Not enough of those to go around these days, sadly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LBS-bass
. Whilst acknowledging the hard work and time required, I also think that the note-for-note thing is something we can grow through. Not everyone doing their own thing is incapable - some will have left the rote recital behind a long time ago.
.

Sure but there is a difference between wanting to make your own version of a song because of artistic liberty/interpretation and plain simply being unable to play certain (relatively easy, with a bit of practice) riffs and licks.

Edit: case in point, I played in a band where the sole guitarist didn't play the guitar solo in "Kryptonite" by 3 Doors Down. Took me all of five minutes to figure it out on bass so I offered to play it. This hurt his ego, and he proceeded to butcher it live on stage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChrisB2 and SteveCS