Players that won't learn a note

[Killing Floor]

I saw the thread title and thought it was gonna be about Pat Metheny!

 

[micguy]

Depending on what you want to do with music - where you want to play, who you want to play with, there is an appropriate level of musical education that is needed. The folks you are describing have the proper amount of education for sitting at home and playing with themselves (double entendre not originally intended, but yes, it fits)

 

[LuckyScott]

I have played with several guitar players that could not identify a single note, but were extremely talented. They just learned to play by ear and got very good.

 

[themickster]

PS to OP I guess you despise Tablature

Not at all. It's a good tool. I get what you're saying, though, and take it as banter.

 

[GretschWretch]

Throwing alternate tunings at a player who doesn't have a command of the fretboard and at least some theory is setting him up for failure.

But there are other ways to be set up for failure. At the Thursday open mic at a local venue I was backing (first time) a local phenom who had placed second on The Voice. As usual, I positioned myself behind and a bit to the left of the soloist so I had a clear sight line to the guitar neck and her hand/thumb movement along it.

Normally I am more than pretty good in these situations (the backstory on that will have to wait until a different thread/post) even on stuff I've never heard before (like this girl's originals), but this night I was getting massacred. I was making the right reads, but the notes were all wrong. After the set I apologized for messing things up and said I could not understand what had happened. Her reply? "Oh, I tune two whole steps down from standard." So what I was hearing as a G chord in reality was an E-flat.

 

[Chrisk-K]

I would not work with her in my wildest dream or nightmare.

 

[Hounddog409]

I worked with someone on two songs. One of them I was writing the music. I told her in messenger which notes to play in the verse. 'I don't know what any notes are. I go by the string and fret'. This same one had written the first song we worked on. She had to tell me the bassline with 'That string that fret' all on the 6th string, where 'B A G' would have done. I found it easier to play on the A string for the first two bars. The first time I did that, she freaked out. She screeched 'You're playing the wrong notes!'
I played her opening B and mine. 'They're the same note. Listen.' She was truly disappointed in herself for going only by string and fret. She still didn't bother to learn a note, though.
Another guitarist refuses be told what chords are in a song. 'I can play well enough by ear' and 'I don't want to learn open chords'. He's been told many times about his lead breaks not being right for the chords. 'What do mean?'
It took three goes to get him to understand what DADGAD tuning is. 'Tune the E strings to D and the B string to A' was too hard for him. This same guitarist once started a song riff in the wrong key in a gig. I stopped the song and told him the mistake, which he seemingly couldn't hear. He explained that he'd tuned the bottom string a tone out. That was with a tuner. He's no longer in the band.

You stopped a song during a gig????

Wow.

 

[Watchootognbout]

It's the "American Idol"mentality.
Attitude before ability.
Fake it til you make it.
Doing what you can with as little knowledge and effort as possible.
And maybe even less.

And then expect maximum returns.

 

[dkelley]

One of the best Lead Players I ever heard and had pleasure to play with was gifted with a 'Golden Ear'
Could hear a song once and play it perfectly including lead parts.

We were on stage and guest singer said I sing this in 'C'; He looked at me and said play a C So I played a C and he then went to position on his neck.

It then struck me he didn't know notes by location on fret board just by Ear could he correlate it.

I would much rather have the 'Ear' than knowledge especially if Guitar was a un-knowingly a little out of tune

PS to OP I guess you despise Tablature

tons of us can do that. Most of us who can do that also know the names of the notes on the guitar sufficiently to be able to verbally talk to other musicians without wasting everybody's time, which is what this thread is about.

If you are saying that playing great and learning fast doesn't require theory or the ability to read music, of course that's true. But those who choose not to learn more about music are limiting themselves, SPECIALLY so if they are as good as the person you are talking about. With those musical gifts, imagine what that player could accomplish professionally working with other musicians?

In university, one of our classes was to listen to classical music pieces and transcribe it all (Write it down in standard musical notation) in real time. This was a class that went on like this all term, progressing constantly. I found myself easily in demand after that in the rock world by recording engineers who wanted to hire someone to listen to a band's song(s) and transcribe all the parts, and then write suitable string or horn or keys or bg vocal parts for session players.

So much one can do with a great ear and quick learning ability. Is it necessary that the player in your example must choose to become a better musician than he already was? nope, not at all. But it's kind of silly to actively choose not to.. which, again, is what this discussion is about. Those who choose not to learn something useful in music, yet want to work with musicians productively.

 

[80jazz]

"Learning theory? Not me! Music is art, creativity is freedom, there are no rules!"

I just had a conversation with a guy I used to work with this week on this topic. The statement above is probably a good summation of his thoughts on the topic.

I especially like when they can't break rules they don't know and/or end up playing pretty typical patterns and progressions.

It's also amusing when people say you are playing the wrong notes because you are fretting them different.

 

[dkelley]

I saw the thread title and thought it was gonna be about Pat Metheny!

View attachment 5119904

I don't get it (edit: like, I really don't LoL, I'm missing something in that reference, I think LoL)

 

[80jazz]

"Oh, I tune two whole steps down from standard." So what I was hearing as a G chord in reality was an E-flat.

This is why at this point I ask what tunings guitarists use, but I think that by choosing these alternates they may be limiting themselves.

I hope you didn't feel too bad after hearing the tuning was different.

 

[themickster]

You stopped a song during a gig????

Wow.

Yes. It was the first few bars of the set, and he was making an awful row with the wrong notes. They weren't even the right notes in the wrong order. The whole song would have been awful. I'd rather stop and fix it quickly than go through the song badly.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Not everyone is as intolerant as you. Neither of you would last long, based on one comment each.

Last long? I've been playing jazz bass since '68.

 

[fdeck]

I have played with several guitar players that could not identify a single note, but were extremely talented. They just learned to play by ear and got very good.

Watch out for "survivor bias." The successful musicians are the ones who survived all of the things they did wrong. They have a 100% chance of success. A beginner doing the same things has a roughly 0% chance.

The question with a beginner is whether it's worth giving them that chance, and then it's completely a judgment call.

A guitarist who had not learned the names of the notes, nor how to play by ear, would be very low on my list of lost causes worth rescuing.

 

[fdeck]

Last long? I've been playing jazz bass since '68.

Beginner.

 

[Hounddog409]

Yes. It was the first few bars of the set, and he was making an awful row with the wrong notes. They weren't even the right notes in the wrong order. The whole song would have been awful. I'd rather stop and fix it quickly than go through the song badly.

Never stop the song. That is the first rule i learned back in the 80s.

Sounds to me like your ego is a big issue.
Everone makes mistakes playing live. Keep playing. The audience will never know. Never stop the song. Great way to never get a second gig.

I know a ton of players that dont know names of notes or names of chords they are playing. It dont matter. We talk in a way that they understand. I dont demand they do it my way, or amyway. We work together to make it work.

 

[themickster]

tons of us can do that. Most of us who can do that also know the names of the notes on the guitar sufficiently to be able to verbally talk to other musicians without wasting everybody's time, which is what this thread is about.

If you are saying that playing great and learning fast doesn't require theory or the ability to read music, of course that's true. But those who choose not to learn more about music are limiting themselves, SPECIALLY so if they are as good as the person you are talking about. With those musical gifts, imagine what that player could accomplish professionally working with other musicians?

In university, one of our classes was to listen to classical music pieces and transcribe it all (Write it down in standard musical notation) in real time. This was a class that went on like this all term, progressing constantly. I found myself easily in demand after that in the rock world by recording engineers who wanted to hire someone to listen to a band's song(s) and transcribe all the parts, and then write suitable string or horn or keys or bg vocal parts for session players.

So much one can do with a great ear and quick learning ability. Is it necessary that the player in your example must choose to become a better musician than he already was? nope, not at all. But it's kind of silly to actively choose not to.. which, again, is what this discussion is about. Those who choose not to learn something useful in music, yet want to work with musicians productively.

Such folk are like Connor McCleod in Highlander, on being told to get a better sword.
McCleod: My claymore's good enough for me.
Ramirez: That's because your fighting's only good enough for the claymore.

They're only as good as what little theory they know.

 

[Koshchei]

I worked with someone on two songs. One of them I was writing the music. I told her in messenger which notes to play in the verse. 'I don't know what any notes are. I go by the string and fret'. This same one had written the first song we worked on. She had to tell me the bassline with 'That string that fret' all on the 6th string, where 'B A G' would have done. I found it easier to play on the A string for the first two bars. The first time I did that, she freaked out. She screeched 'You're playing the wrong notes!'
I played her opening B and mine. 'They're the same note. Listen.' She was truly disappointed in herself for going only by string and fret. She still didn't bother to learn a note, though.
Another guitarist refuses be told what chords are in a song. 'I can play well enough by ear' and 'I don't want to learn open chords'. He's been told many times about his lead breaks not being right for the chords. 'What do mean?'
It took three goes to get him to understand what DADGAD tuning is. 'Tune the E strings to D and the B string to A' was too hard for him. This same guitarist once started a song riff in the wrong key in a gig. I stopped the song and told him the mistake, which he seemingly couldn't hear. He explained that he'd tuned the bottom string a tone out. That was with a tuner. He's no longer in the band.

Music is hard work and craft. People who can't be arsed aren't musicians, they're a waste of time.

 

[GretschWretch]

This is why at this point I ask what tunings guitarists use, but I think that by choosing these alternates they may be limiting themselves.

I hope you didn't feel too bad after hearing the tuning was different.

Well, this open mike was a regularly occurring thing and I had worked with the monitor many times before, and he used standard tuning, so I kind of was in my comfort zone. Plus, I don't think I had ever worked with a non-standard tuning artist before. I was so blind-sided it never occurred to me to ask what tuning she was in.