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Please point out the red flag in my response
- Thread starter comatosedragon
- Start date
Mr Magic is the Mustang Sally of Jazz......Blue Bossa is the Brown Eyed Girl of Jazz.
I agree - he asked for a couple of weeks to get out of a pile up. Give him a couple weeks.
I read this exchange as: OP found out the the guy is a professor then replies saying he has extremely limited experience. Professor interprets this as OP apologising that he might not be up the standard expected by a music professor. Professor tries to assure OP that he teaches [something else] and isn't a know-it-all music snob expecting a bass player who can sight read Jaco bass lines in odd time signatures.
If exams are still on, I'd just leave it. The professor has been as honest about his availability in the immediate future as the OP was with his schedule limitations. I don't know what the exam cycle/end of semester time is where you are, but it it isn't over yet, give him the time he asked for. Then give him another week. Then reach out with a friendly, low-key email saying "... hi ... hope you made it through the busy end of semester (lol) ... looking forward to getting those lead sheets ... "
Suggesting someone learn 25 jazz standards who has no experience with jazz/notation/charts/theory is a bit much don't you think?
So Anyway, they still might contact you. If they do, and you can make it.... just show up.
That'll give you the best idea if this might be a good fit for you.
But don't stop trying to network and meet other players. It's essential to becoming a better player.
Good Luck to you.
That'll give you the best idea if this might be a good fit for you.
But don't stop trying to network and meet other players. It's essential to becoming a better player.
Good Luck to you.
In my experience nobody learns jazz standards except through repetition. They learn how to work with charts. This doesn't really seem like a tall order.
Limited band experience, not into jazz, going through a Steely Dan kick, complicated sounding schedule to work with, second bassist, can't read music, Rocksmith your "learning tool."
You perhaps overexposed yourself as being a bit too amateur and a poor musical fit for him. "Most difficult member" and "least experienced" is not an interesting dichotomy in the slightest, especially when you're also saying that Steely Dan is the closest thing to jazz that you're into at the moment. It's almost literally throwing up your own major red flags.
"Low pressure" does not mean "beginner," "inexperienced," or "poor musical fit."
You should have just told him a time you wanted to show up, said you looked forward to it, and asked for some lead sheets.
But regardless, it doesn't sound like the band for you, and I think you made that quite clear to him, as you did to us. Keep looking. You will find something that is a better fit.
You perhaps overexposed yourself as being a bit too amateur and a poor musical fit for him. "Most difficult member" and "least experienced" is not an interesting dichotomy in the slightest, especially when you're also saying that Steely Dan is the closest thing to jazz that you're into at the moment. It's almost literally throwing up your own major red flags.
"Low pressure" does not mean "beginner," "inexperienced," or "poor musical fit."
You should have just told him a time you wanted to show up, said you looked forward to it, and asked for some lead sheets.
But regardless, it doesn't sound like the band for you, and I think you made that quite clear to him, as you did to us. Keep looking. You will find something that is a better fit.
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O.P., you didn't do anything wrong in your communication. Others have pointed out some of the issues that might have concerned the guitarist. But if your musical interests and experience are completely different from his; if you can't jam/rehearse when he wants to jam/rehearse; it's better to be up front about those things ahead of time. Maybe (not necessarily, but maybe) this isn't a great match for you.
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I know some people will think this is foolish or a waste of time. I am also aware that things like this are posted quite frequently on this board.
That being stated, I still would truly value input on this matter.
Two months ago, I was browsing craigslist for band and/or jam opportunities (please don't point out that Craigslist is the red flag). My geographical area generally has very very posts, maybe one or two a month.
I found this listing:
Intermediate jazz guitar player in <AREA> looking for other jazz musicians for occasional jam sessions and, perhaps, some low pressure gigs. Horns, bass, keyboard, drummer, or other guitar players are welcome to reply. I enjoy playing standards, comping, trading off solos, etc. Again, very low pressure.
So I contacted the poster, especially tantalized by the last line of their add.
I received a response, and found out that the poster is a teacher at a nearby university. I explained my situation:
I am a male in my 40's, playing alone 14+ years, extremely limited band experience. More into classic rock than jazz, but just wanting to get out there and play. The positives are I own all my own gear, have my own transportation, and no children, so I have very few other commitments. I mentioned I'm going through a "Steely Dan" kick right now, that might be considered a bit jazzy.
He replied back:
First of all, don’t be intimidated that I’m a professor - I’m a <FIELD> professor not a music professor! And you are correct, just playing in a low stress, non-judgmental environment is the best way to learn. You can only play along with recorded music in your practice room for so long and then you’ve got to get out there. Being able to read music on a fundamental level helps. If you see a Dm7, A7, Gmaj7 on a chord chart and can find the D, the A, and the G on your fretboard, you’re halfway there!
I’ll be back in touch soon. Have a happy Easter.
(This email has all his professional info and a picture, it is easy to verify that he is indeed a professor where he says he is.)
A week or so later and a third response:
Dear <comatosedragon>, <P2>, and <P3>,
Greetings to the three of you. Thanks again for responding to my Craigslist post about a jazz jam session. It looks like we have two bass players (P3 and comatosedragon), saxophone (P2), and guitar (me). There might be a student or two at <COLLEGE> who would be interesting in sitting in as well. I have blind copied each of you on this email because I didn’t get your permission to share your email addresses with the others.
If everyone is in agreement, one possibility is to meet and play in the band room at <COLLEGE>. That would keep those in <TOWN> from having to drive all the way to <CITY>. After graduation next weekend, the band room will be pretty empty for the rest of the spring and most of the summer. We have music stands, amps for bass and keyboard, and a nice drum kit (if a drummer pops up). There’s also plenty of parking right next to the building, so there wouldn’t be much walking.
The college is in final exams right now and we have graduation next weekend. Give me a couple of weeks to get through this end of the semester “crunch", and then we can schedule something.
If you are still interested, would you all email me your preferences for days of the week and time? For example, do you prefer weekend afternoons, weekend evenings, weekday evenings, etc.? In the meantime, I select five or six tunes and make copies of the lead sheets for those who would like them.
When I saw this, I got excited and immediately sent a response. I admit, when I'm nervous I tend to get flustered or try to find something "intelligent to say".
I sent this message:
I think meeting and playing at the college is a good idea.
I work 3rd shift, so I guess I'm going to be the most 'difficult' member; but then again I am sure that I am the least experienced, so maybe there's an interesting dichotomy there.
I get off around 8am, so for me; Mon-Wed I am available from 9am-noon. Thursdays do not work for me. Fridays and Saturdays work the best for me; any time should be fine as long as I have notice. I generally visit my mother on Sundays, but I can make arrangements if the other members prefer to meet on Sunday.
I would like copies of the lead sheets of the songs you selected; that would be very helpful. Although I'm certain a lead sheet is written in musical notation (which I can not read, but I have to start somewhere I guess) I will at least be able to find online sources to help me figure it out.
I may even be able to find a song or two transposed for Rocksmith, which has been my learning tool for the better part of a decade.
Thank you
I have been ghosted since.
Obviously, there is no way to know someone's mind, but I am curious:
If you had posted this add and received my response, what is the red flag that jumps out at you?
Was it Rocksmith? My poor attempt at a joke? Or maybe he just knows 2 bass player is too many, especially if one is as inexperienced as me?
It just feels like his teaching background set off his spider-sense about me or something. IDK.
Thanks for your input folks.
Way too much information. He just asked for your preferred timing.
Thanks so much for all the replies everyone.
I really appreciate the input. And I love that TalkBass pulls no punches. I read every response, and most of you say things that I have thought about, or at least crossed my mind.
My 3rd shift schedule could certainly have been the major issue here.
Anyway, it has been 25 days since last communication for those interested, and I'm just going to leave it alone unless I hear back from him.
I really appreciate the input. And I love that TalkBass pulls no punches. I read every response, and most of you say things that I have thought about, or at least crossed my mind.
My 3rd shift schedule could certainly have been the major issue here.
Anyway, it has been 25 days since last communication for those interested, and I'm just going to leave it alone unless I hear back from him.
I'm not sure you have been ghosted at all - wasn't clear from the OP how long ago the professor's last communication was, but he did indicate you might not hear from him for a couple of weeks. If that communication was less than two weeks ago, he's doing exactly what he said he would do.
I'm also a professor - don't be intimidated, just a HISTORY professor! ...OK actually do be intimidated, we're dreadful.
ANYWAY...
I'll share one thing from my own experience... grading is horrible. I hate it with a passion, wish I could do my job without having to do it. When it's finals season, you plough through all this mass of stuff, and you have a whole lot of bad news you're giving to a lot of people that you really wish you didn't have to be giving bad news to. Some of them are going to hate you for it and post course evaluations telling you how awful you are and no one should ever take a class from you ever again. You know they're generally just projecting, because you saw how much effort they (didn't) put in, but it's still no fun to get that barrage. Meanwhile every single committee and department chair and bureaucrat needs everything in the next couple of days because you go off-contract in a week and they're not allowed to make you do it after that, so it all has to get done now.
The point being, for me, once I manage to chug through all that, I generally go hide in a cave. The last thing I want to do for a little while is be managing communications and organizing stuff. It's not so much that it's a busy season, lots of people's jobs are busy - it's that there's an aspect of social communication that you can get strung out from. So if this guy's experience is anything like mine, I totally get that he would anticipate going dark a few days around this time of year.
Give him the couple of weeks, and if you don't hear at that point, shoot him another email or text or however you're communicating to see what's up.
I'm also a professor - don't be intimidated, just a HISTORY professor! ...OK actually do be intimidated, we're dreadful.
ANYWAY...
I'll share one thing from my own experience... grading is horrible. I hate it with a passion, wish I could do my job without having to do it. When it's finals season, you plough through all this mass of stuff, and you have a whole lot of bad news you're giving to a lot of people that you really wish you didn't have to be giving bad news to. Some of them are going to hate you for it and post course evaluations telling you how awful you are and no one should ever take a class from you ever again. You know they're generally just projecting, because you saw how much effort they (didn't) put in, but it's still no fun to get that barrage. Meanwhile every single committee and department chair and bureaucrat needs everything in the next couple of days because you go off-contract in a week and they're not allowed to make you do it after that, so it all has to get done now.
The point being, for me, once I manage to chug through all that, I generally go hide in a cave. The last thing I want to do for a little while is be managing communications and organizing stuff. It's not so much that it's a busy season, lots of people's jobs are busy - it's that there's an aspect of social communication that you can get strung out from. So if this guy's experience is anything like mine, I totally get that he would anticipate going dark a few days around this time of year.
Give him the couple of weeks, and if you don't hear at that point, shoot him another email or text or however you're communicating to see what's up.
Oops, cross-posted. Well, that's over two weeks. I'd still shoot one last message just to check, then let it go. As others said, you did the right thing to be frank about your skill level and schedule and all and he may just have felt it wasn't a match. Or he may have forgotten, or gotten sick, or who knows what.
I agree with @hrodbert696. It can't hurt to drop him a line asking what's up.
Too many people are guilty of this sort of intellectual snobbery, but many or not. Sometimes you just get pigeon-holed. I am retired after a thirty-six year career as an academic librarian. Didn't quite get the Ph.D, didn't make full professor. But I did make associate and was awarded emeritus status.
And for years I had to correct colleagues and students who addressed me as "Doctor." The students would not know this, but the faculty certainly did and still they would introduce me to their students as "Doctor." And I would correct them and say I did not have the PhD. It changed nothing. After about twenty years of this I realized I was just beat and quit correcting them.
But I never got angry. This is how the building I worked in looked when I got angry.
I think there were plenty of red flags on both sides.
I think meeting and playing at the college is a good idea.
I work 3rd shift, so I guess I'm going to be the most 'difficult' member; but then again I am sure that I am the least experienced, so maybe there's an interesting dichotomy there.
I get off around 8am, so for me; Mon-Wed I am available from 9am-noon. Thursdays do not work for me. Fridays and Saturdays work the best for me; any time should be fine as long as I have notice. I generally visit my mother on Sundays, but I can make arrangements if the other members prefer to meet on Sunday.
I would like copies of the lead sheets of the songs you selected; that would be very helpful. Although I'm certain a lead sheet is written in musical notation (which I can not read, but I have to start somewhere I guess) I will at least be able to find online sources to help me figure it out.
I may even be able to find a song or two transposed for Rocksmith, which has been my learning tool for the better part of a decade.
Thank you
I think meeting and playing at the college is a good idea.
I work 3rd shift, so I guess I'm going to be the most 'difficult' member; but then again I am sure that I am the least experienced, so maybe there's an interesting dichotomy there.
I get off around 8am, so for me; Mon-Wed I am available from 9am-noon. Thursdays do not work for me. Fridays and Saturdays work the best for me; any time should be fine as long as I have notice. I generally visit my mother on Sundays, but I can make arrangements if the other members prefer to meet on Sunday.
I would like copies of the lead sheets of the songs you selected; that would be very helpful. Although I'm certain a lead sheet is written in musical notation (which I can not read, but I have to start somewhere I guess) I will at least be able to find online sources to help me figure it out.
I may even be able to find a song or two transposed for Rocksmith, which has been my learning tool for the better part of a decade.
Thank you
Titles have been given out for much less. They had a lot of respect for you, Doc.Too many people are guilty of this sort of intellectual snobbery, but many or not. Sometimes you just get pigeon-holed. I am retired after a thirty-six year career as an academic librarian. Didn't quite get the Ph.D, didn't make full professor. But I did make associate and was awarded emeritus status.
And for years I had to correct colleagues and students who addressed me as "Doctor." The students would not know this, but the faculty certainly did and still they would introduce me to their students as "Doctor." And I would correct them and say I did not have the PhD. It changed nothing. After about twenty years of this I realized I was just beat and quit correcting them.
But I never got angry. This is how the building I worked in looked when I got angry.
Well, I just hope that I truly earned it. Thanks for the kind words.
It sounds like he's looking for more of a jazz bassist than you have described yourself as. Steely Dan is not jazz. Jazzy, but not something you'd find getting called at a jazz gig. And you need a tool to transpose, nothing wrong with that, but jazz players can transpose on the fly. It's like answering an ad to join a Spanish club, when all you know how to do is order a burrito. I wouldn't take any of this personally, and if you're not deep into real jazz you might not quite get it, but you don't sound like the guy. You might not have that much fun playing that kind of music if you aren't already playing it.
