Plectrum playing question

[DD Gunz]

I do struggle with finding a comfortable position. Do you have any tips to help find this? Maybe a better chair to sit on for practice? Any recommendations?

Honestly I would say let that wrist heal up and try it again trying to relax and take it slow. If it feels like you are headed down the same path make an adjustment. I personally do not anchor my wrist while playing with a pick. I move around where needed and pluck at the bridge and move to the neck when I want to thicken up the sounds. There are many tones to be had by just moving a little.

Good luck. I have no doubt you will find they way that works for you.

 

[RickyWoo]

Making a good habit of daily wrist stretches isn't a novel idea but it might be worth considering, if you haven't.

 

[Sneakyfish]

Some great suggestions given already! Here are a few of mine.

DO NOT PLAY THROUGH THE PAIN!!!!

I started out on bass and not guitar so I haven’t had tons of experience with it.

Firstly, as a player of both the bass and guitar, I can say, like others here, that the motions for picking on the two instruments are NOT the same. The response curves of the two are drastically different. While exercises from the guitar are applicable note-wise, the technique used to play them should be totally different. Using the technique for a sword when holding a battle-ax will not work and will hurt you terribly.

1) Pick physics - A lot of players seem to be suggesting that going up a couple of gauges will take away some muscular strain. While I don't doubt that these guys have had a positive experience with heavy AF picks, I take a different view. Do experiment with your gauges but be aware there's a point of diminishing returns which you should watch out for.

The point of diminishing returns - the reason I shy away from huge picks
After a certain thickness, the pick becomes a rigid structure with no flex (ex. 1mm ultex) and so is already transferring almost 100% of the force you apply to the string (100% efficiency). So if you're hitting as hard as possible, why doesn't increasing the pick gauge after this point yield any further increase in amplitude then? Because a pick/string/pickup system only has so much headroom to give. Once you've reached it's maximum possible vibration, hitting the string harder will not yield any further increase in amplitude. It may result in a broken string. It may enhance string attack, but you shouldn't try to compensate for the limits of the pick/string/pickup by hitting the bass harder, it gets you nothing but damaged hands. And your poor bass is giving you everything she's got captain! Also, I consider playing with a rigid pick over 1mm to be like playing a brass instrument with an air compressor, massive but lacking subtlety when required...

Bendy picks as force multipliers - advantages of lower gauge that I've experienced
A lighter pick does flex and as it does (in the moment before it pings through the string), the amount of force applied rises owing to the elasticity of the pick/string material. It may even rise to the same point as a thicker pick, giving you the same output anyway (only the more flexible pick is acting as a shock absorber between you and the string ). You can also gain extra dynamic from a more flexible pick by going from a nice loose grip to a slightly firmer one anyway.

I hesitantly add that the perfect pick doesn't exist. Almost yes, but perfectly suited to you? Unless you fabricate it yourself, no. So I say go for the gauge that affords you the most control of your dynamic range, that is neither too flexible nor too rigid, while giving you some comfortable shock absorption and a pick attack that is pleasing to you. There is a 'goldilocks zone' where these factors are nicely balanced. Experiment to find it!

I’ve started to get an ache and pain in my right wrist

2) Health concerns over picking by the neck or bridge? - It is obviously not my place to dispute Carol Kaye or anybody else. However, I've noticed people sometimes conflate the issues of picking safely with picking location. I only see picking by the bridge as unsafe when the pick gauge/string tension is so high that picking the string there becomes like hitting a solid object, no? Your skeletal, muscular, and nervous systems are getting severely pounded every time you impact the string. But this is an issue of body mechanics and total tolerance of mechanical stresses, not where on the string you've hit. A slightly more flexible pick will help to negate this problem, regardless of where on the string you pick.

Isn't the point of picking by the neck (other than timbre), to get some shock absorption from the increased travel of the string there? Isn't getting the absorption from the pick instead so you can play wherever you want without pain more efficient?

So pick by the nut if the song demands it! Throw picks at the bass! IMHO, where you pick is a timbral decision. If your equipment or technique prevents you from accessing the full timbral palette of your instrument, you need to adjust your equipment or technique, surely?

3) Picking technique
I say the same as most people. When it comes to refining any technique (picking included) there is only one primary question. Not 'how do I do this move?' or 'what part of my finger/pick do I use?', these are secondary and subjective questions. The primary question is this:

"How relaxed are the muscles surrounding the task?"

You do need certain muscles/groups to pick, but the body's natural reaction when doing something perceived as new/difficult, is to support the working muscles with the others not being used. This creates muscular isometry (simultaneous pushing/pulling) which is satan and the devil! You are literally wasting energy on nothing! For example, if you've fretted the string correctly and it's not buzzing, how will pressing harder help you? This isometry, will cause you so many health problems in time. Treat it as your mortal enemy.

You need to get your both of your arms completely and bonelessly limp from shoulder to finger-tip and they need to, as much as physically possible, stay that way. Concentrate constantly on releasing the tension from your muscles and developing a smooth and graceful motion around the whole instrument. Only ever use the amount of force required to do the job, never a cent more. It does take some willpower/focus but, if you can do this effectively, it's possible to remain relaxed at any tempo while hitting any subdivision. Playing the bass goes from manually challenging to a relaxed and serene experience.

from what I can gather is most likely the tendons

Lastly, "Anchoring" makes me think of solidly grounding something, maybe too solidly? On guitar, anchoring with the R.H. ring or pinky is good practice. It isn't so on the bass. For guitars of all types, the most instinctive anchor-point I've seen is the interior surface of the forearm or crook of the elbow. If you solidly press your arm into the upper bout of the bass like this, you will get tendonitis or inflammation of some description, I've seen this too in bassists and guitarists. Muscular isometry will have the roughly similar effects. As will gripping the pick too tightly. Instead of anchoring your arm at a point, try to think of that point as a guide that your arm glides smoothly over or around.

Connective tissue (ligaments, tendons, muscles), is at its most flexible and elastic when it's warm. So warm up, stretch and generate some body heat before you play.

Hope this helps you. \m/

 

[RustyAxe]

I'd like to see a close up of how you hold your pick. From the pics it's hard to see, but I believe that might be part (perhaps ALL) of your problem.

 

[MrLenny1]

Things to be aware of :
holding pick too tight
improper gauge / thickness of a pick
picking with finger action vs wrist action.
Wrist action is best and easier on the hand.
I recently started using a pick again and these are the issues I had.

 

[StatesideRambler]

Warming up is always important but it's especially important when you have had pain. Whatever your warmup routine, it should begin slowly (practice slowly to develop the good technique that lets you play fast) and with low effort (low force). As you transition from warmup to playing be watchful for anything you're changing. That is the time to observe what you do that causes strain. When, during a practice session, you start feeling discomfort, either adjust what you're doing or stop! FWIW when I've had pain similar to this physical therapists have recommended putting an ice pack on the injured or painful area for twenty minutes then rest it for a couple hours.

 

[green3101]

Some great suggestions given already! Here are a few of mine.

DO NOT PLAY THROUGH THE PAIN!!!!



Firstly, as a player of both the bass and guitar, I can say, like others here, that the motions for picking on the two instruments are NOT the same. The response curves of the two are drastically different. While exercises from the guitar are applicable note-wise, the technique used to play them should be totally different. Using the technique for a sword when holding a battle-ax will not work and will hurt you terribly.

1) Pick physics - A lot of players seem to be suggesting that going up a couple of gauges will take away some muscular strain. While I don't doubt that these guys have had a positive experience with heavy AF picks, I take a different view. Do experiment with your gauges but be aware there's a point of diminishing returns which you should watch out for.

The point of diminishing returns - the reason I shy away from huge picks
After a certain thickness, the pick becomes a rigid structure with no flex (ex. 1mm ultex) and so is already transferring almost 100% of the force you apply to the string (100% efficiency). So if you're hitting as hard as possible, why doesn't increasing the pick gauge after this point yield any further increase in amplitude then? Because a pick/string/pickup system only has so much headroom to give. Once you've reached it's maximum possible vibration, hitting the string harder will not yield any further increase in amplitude. It may result in a broken string. It may enhance string attack, but you shouldn't try to compensate for the limits of the pick/string/pickup by hitting the bass harder, it gets you nothing but damaged hands. And your poor bass is giving you everything she's got captain! Also, I consider playing with a rigid pick over 1mm to be like playing a brass instrument with an air compressor, massive but lacking subtlety when required...

Bendy picks as force multipliers - advantages of lower gauge that I've experienced
A lighter pick does flex and as it does (in the moment before it pings through the string), the amount of force applied rises owing to the elasticity of the pick/string material. It may even rise to the same point as a thicker pick, giving you the same output anyway (only the more flexible pick is acting as a shock absorber between you and the string ). You can also gain extra dynamic from a more flexible pick by going from a nice loose grip to a slightly firmer one anyway.

I hesitantly add that the perfect pick doesn't exist. Almost yes, but perfectly suited to you? Unless you fabricate it yourself, no. So I say go for the gauge that affords you the most control of your dynamic range, that is neither too flexible nor too rigid, while giving you some comfortable shock absorption and a pick attack that is pleasing to you. There is a 'goldilocks zone' where these factors are nicely balanced. Experiment to find it!



2) Health concerns over picking by the neck or bridge? - It is obviously not my place to dispute Carol Kaye or anybody else. However, I've noticed people sometimes conflate the issues of picking safely with picking location. I only see picking by the bridge as unsafe when the pick gauge/string tension is so high that picking the string there becomes like hitting a solid object, no? Your skeletal, muscular, and nervous systems are getting severely pounded every time you impact the string. But this is an issue of body mechanics and total tolerance of mechanical stresses, not where on the string you've hit. A slightly more flexible pick will help to negate this problem, regardless of where on the string you pick.

Isn't the point of picking by the neck (other than timbre), to get some shock absorption from the increased travel of the string there? Isn't getting the absorption from the pick instead so you can play wherever you want without pain more efficient?

So pick by the nut if the song demands it! Throw picks at the bass! IMHO, where you pick is a timbral decision. If your equipment or technique prevents you from accessing the full timbral palette of your instrument, you need to adjust your equipment or technique, surely?

3) Picking technique
I say the same as most people. When it comes to refining any technique (picking included) there is only one primary question. Not 'how do I do this move?' or 'what part of my finger/pick do I use?', these are secondary and subjective questions. The primary question is this:

"How relaxed are the muscles surrounding the task?"

You do need certain muscles/groups to pick, but the body's natural reaction when doing something perceived as new/difficult, is to support the working muscles with the others not being used. This creates muscular isometry (simultaneous pushing/pulling) which is satan and the devil! You are literally wasting energy on nothing! For example, if you've fretted the string correctly and it's not buzzing, how will pressing harder help you? This isometry, will cause you so many health problems in time. Treat it as your mortal enemy.

You need to get your both of your arms completely and bonelessly limp from shoulder to finger-tip and they need to, as much as physically possible, stay that way. Concentrate constantly on releasing the tension from your muscles and developing a smooth and graceful motion around the whole instrument. Only ever use the amount of force required to do the job, never a cent more. It does take some willpower/focus but, if you can do this effectively, it's possible to remain relaxed at any tempo while hitting any subdivision. Playing the bass goes from manually challenging to a relaxed and serene experience.



Lastly, "Anchoring" makes me think of solidly grounding something, maybe too solidly? On guitar, anchoring with the R.H. ring or pinky is good practice. It isn't so on the bass. For guitars of all types, the most instinctive anchor-point I've seen is the interior surface of the forearm or crook of the elbow. If you solidly press your arm into the upper bout of the bass like this, you will get tendonitis or inflammation of some description, I've seen this too in bassists and guitarists. Muscular isometry will have the roughly similar effects. As will gripping the pick too tightly. Instead of anchoring your arm at a point, try to think of that point as a guide that your arm glides smoothly over or around.

Connective tissue (ligaments, tendons, muscles), is at its most flexible and elastic when it's warm. So warm up, stretch and generate some body heat before you play.

Hope this helps you. \m/

This is a very helpful post! Thank you!

 

[Lobster11]

2) Health concerns over picking by the neck or bridge? - It is obviously not my place to dispute Carol Kaye or anybody else. However, I've noticed people sometimes conflate the issues of picking safely with picking location. I only see picking by the bridge as unsafe when the pick gauge/string tension is so high that picking the string there becomes like hitting a solid object, no? Your skeletal, muscular, and nervous systems are getting severely pounded every time you impact the string. But this is an issue of body mechanics and total tolerance of mechanical stresses, not where on the string you've hit. A slightly more flexible pick will help to negate this problem, regardless of where on the string you pick.

IMHO, the main problem with picking close to the bridge isn't about the inflexibility of the strings there; it's the fact that the further you reach your arm/hand towards the bridge, the more you have to cock your wrist back in the other direction to be able to pick perpendicular to the strings. It's basically the same problem as trying to pick while wearing the bass very low. And it occurs to me now that the area that is strained by this is exactly where OP is reporting his pain, i.e., on the inside of the wrist.

 

[Sneakyfish]

IMHO, the main problem with picking close to the bridge isn't about the inflexibility of the strings there; it's the fact that the further you reach your arm/hand towards the bridge, the more you have to cock your wrist back in the other direction to be able to pick perpendicular to the strings. It's basically the same problem as trying to pick while wearing the bass very low. And it occurs to me now that the area that is strained by this is exactly where OP is reporting his pain, i.e., on the inside of the wrist.

Good catch! Though I've found the use of a jazz pick with a pointed tip eliminates the worry of keeping the pick perpendicular. As the attack sounds virtually identical at all pick angles, it's mainly altered instead by how 'deep' the pick is in relation to the strings. It would also be my response to alter the geometry of the whole arm to accomplish this (even if this is to accommodate the relaxed movement of one finger as an extreme example) in similar fashion to a pianist, rather than angling my wrist oppositely as you've pointed out. I agree that the OP should absolutely not flex, extend, or supinate their wrist permanently in an effort to keep the pick flat. I also agree that a 0 degree pick angle sounds more pleasing more of the time that a 'scrapy' pick attack, but as I said, a jazz pick kinda side-steps this.

Vis a vis height of the bass. I think my suggestions only really apply to a bass height in the median range. I do not subscribe to extremes of bass height, as this is basically selecting poor posture on purpose! The choice is drag your knuckles or look like you've a stick up ur backside. I have observed a sweet spot of bass height where the instrument and the arcs of the arm intersect naturally, allowing for a perpendicular pick (maybe not mathematically perfectly flat but what can you do?) without any unnecessary flexion or extension of any part of the arm. Wherever the sweet-spot is for the OP that allows them to have relaxed, healthy arms and keep a relatively 'flat' pick (if that is indeed their aim), is the place where their bass should sit.

Edit: also can't the relative angle of the pick to the strings be altered by holding the bass at a slightly different angle as well?

What do you think?

 

[green3101]

Do you guys recommend any warm up exercises when using a pick?

Also - what do you recommend as the best chair to sit on when practicing? I have a swivel office chair as shown in my pictures and I don’t think it’s doing me any favours as I find it uncomftable to sit and hold the instrument whilst sitting in it.

 

[Tom Bomb]

Do you guys recommend any warm up exercises when using a pick?

Also - what do you recommend as the best chair to sit on when practicing? I have a swivel office chair as shown in my pictures and I don’t think it’s doing me any favours as I find it uncomftable to sit and hold the instrument whilst sitting in it.

I'm a subscriber to the dynamic stretching approach. In a nutshell, that's more-or-less just playing, pretty much, unless you're going to be pogoing etc.. — so, just warming up, gently going through the motions that you'll be employing when the fun starts in earnest.

 

[Tom Bomb]

Regarding the sitting arrangements, you just need to be comfortable — that's the only hard-and-fast rule. Whatever you do, don't spend more than twenty minutes in the one position, if you're coming off worse for wear: wear a strap regardless, get up out of the chair and go for a walk regularly, hit the sofa, find a bar-stool, find a bar, dance a while

 

[green3101]

Regarding the sitting arrangements, you just need to be comfortable — that's the only hard-and-fast rule. Whatever you do, don't spend more than twenty minutes in the one position, if you're coming off worse for wear: wear a strap regardless, get up out of the chair and go for a walk regularly, hit the sofa, find a bar-stool, find a bar, dance a while

Thank you, I’ll have a look around for some new chairs

 

[craigie]

Does anyone have any suggestion to what I said earlier in the thread a few posts up regarding the E string on the Höfner?

I didn’t read all the many posts so sorry if I repeat.

Yes, someone had a good suggestion: stop playing the Höfner and play your other basses until you heal and build more strength. You risk patterning in bad technique from the start otherwise...

After I looked at the photos and before you mentioned the E string anchoring problem I thought “how does he anchor his forearm on that bass?”

And I like carol Kaye technique and big purple triangle heavy picks (Dunlop?).

 

[Lobster11]

Good catch! Though I've found the use of a jazz pick with a pointed tip eliminates the worry of keeping the pick perpendicular. As the attack sounds virtually identical at all pick angles, it's mainly altered instead by how 'deep' the pick is in relation to the strings. It would also be my response to alter the geometry of the whole arm to accomplish this (even if this is to accommodate the relaxed movement of one finger as an extreme example) in similar fashion to a pianist, rather than angling my wrist oppositely as you've pointed out. I agree that the OP should absolutely not flex, extend, or supinate their wrist permanently in an effort to keep the pick flat. I also agree that a 0 degree pick angle sounds more pleasing more of the time that a 'scrapy' pick attack, but as I said, a jazz pick kinda side-steps this.

Vis a vis height of the bass. I think my suggestions only really apply to a bass height in the median range. I do not subscribe to extremes of bass height, as this is basically selecting poor posture on purpose! The choice is drag your knuckles or look like you've a stick up ur backside. I have observed a sweet spot of bass height where the instrument and the arcs of the arm intersect naturally, allowing for a perpendicular pick (maybe not mathematically perfectly flat but what can you do?) without any unnecessary flexion or extension of any part of the arm. Wherever the sweet-spot is for the OP that allows them to have relaxed, healthy arms and keep a relatively 'flat' pick (if that is indeed their aim), is the place where their bass should sit.

Edit: also can't the relative angle of the pick to the strings be altered by holding the bass at a slightly different angle as well?

What do you think?

Yes, of course: We all have to figure out the combination of strap length and neck angle that works best for us (and minimizes the risk of injury).

The problem I still have is that the combination of bass height and angle that I find best for fingerstyle is different from what works best for me playing pickstyle. When playing with my fingers, I like the bass body down on my right hip, with the neck angled upwards 30-40 degrees, which gives me a perfect plucking angle and a comfortable, straight wrist. With a pick, though, what works best for me is having the bass both a little higher and more horizontal, which makes picking perpendicular to the strings easy and natural. Since I like to go back and forth between fingers and pick a lot, I've had to settle for what seems to be the best compromise between the two.

When picking I try to follow Carol Kaye's method as closely as possible, but in every video I've ever seen of her she is sitting rather than standing, and the bass is higher relative to her body than I would find comfortable playing standing with a strap. That's the position that makes her method easiest to use, but I often wonder what she would do if she had to play standing.

 

[descendent22]

There’s lots of god advice here. The thing is, EVERYONE is different. There’s no one correct way to play with a plectrum. Your strengths, your comfortable points of play may be totally different then the next bassist. The way your comfortable holding a pick, where you rest your arm or hand,your motion, the height of the bass all plays a factor. You have to find what best works for you. It took me years to figure this out. I play lots of fast stuff with a lot of notes. I playa lot of Punk with almost all down strokes. But then I’ll play stuff with a lot of alterNte picking. I prefer to use a pick for everything.

There was a time when I thought bassist who used picks were wussies. I was in denial about a plectrum ever being near a bass.then years ago I started using a pick because of an injury to my fingers and I’ve never put it down. I bought a Dunlop variety pack of picks. All shapes,gauges and sizes. It took me almost 2 years before I found what works for me as far as a pick goes. Also using something like a Pbass which is all I use and or a jazz bass would be much better for playing wi5 a pick. Small body basses are tough. How aggressive you pick may have so,etching to do with how your forearm muscles feel pain wise. Stretching, warming etc are key. Youhpuld ALWAYS WARM UP AMD STRETCH YOUR FINGERS, HANDS, WRISTS AND ELBOWS. That CJ Ramone video is valuable as well. It’s all about what’s most comfortable for you.

 

[Bassic Talk]

Does anyone have any suggestion to what I said earlier in the thread a few posts up regarding the E string on the Höfner?

Hi. I learned to play bass on a Höfner and have always used a plectrum. Yes, it’s an archtop type instrument and it may be awkward to play for any “normal” electric (Fender style) bass player. Yes, sometimes playing on the E string you’d have to “float” your right hand. I do. At most times I position my right hand very lightly touching the other strings, barely resting on them, to sort of keeping spatial reference and comfort for your arm. I’ve played The Beatles for decades and I’ve copied McCartney’s playing style and technique for my Höfner-playing and it seems most natural to me. Only recently I’ve tried and played on the normal basses and yes, it’s a different ball game altogether. Specially playing on the E string, on the Höfner it takes a while to get used to. I hope this helps.

 

[foal30]

There’s lots of god advice here. The thing is, EVERYONE is different. There’s no one correct way to play with a plectrum. Your strengths, your comfortable points of play may be totally different then the next bassist. The way your comfortable holding a pick, where you rest your arm or hand,your motion, the height of the bass all plays a factor. You have to find what best works for you. It took me years to figure this out. I play lots of fast stuff with a lot of notes. I playa lot of Punk with almost all down strokes. But then I’ll play stuff with a lot of alterNte picking. I prefer to use a pick for everything.

There was a time when I thought bassist who used picks were wussies. I was in denial about a plectrum ever being near a bass.then years ago I started using a pick because of an injury to my fingers and I’ve never put it down. I bought a Dunlop variety pack of picks. All shapes,gauges and sizes. It took me almost 2 years before I found what works for me as far as a pick goes. Also using something like a Pbass which is all I use and or a jazz bass would be much better for playing wi5 a pick. Small body basses are tough. How aggressive you pick may have so,etching to do with how your forearm muscles feel pain wise. Stretching, warming etc are key. Youhpuld ALWAYS WARM UP AMD STRETCH YOUR FINGERS, HANDS, WRISTS AND ELBOWS. That CJ Ramone video is valuable as well. It’s all about what’s most comfortable for you.

Nice post bro.

Two things my Bass Tutor said to me in 1989:

You will be learning Music Theory
You will learn to use a plectrum

30 years on I'm thankful for his dictatorial lessons.

 

[foal30]

I don't use a plectrum very often
Maybe 5% of time
But those lessons learned years back were invaluable.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

if your technique is solid the only difference a thicker or thinner pick will make is in how it sounds.