Pondering Some New Ideas, Need Some Input

[tombowlus]

Well, considering that you're gathering information, I would still point out again that there are few amps being produced with doublers in mind these days. AI and EA are gone, and those were kind of the obvious manufacturers for people who double. If Mesa offered a 2-channel, 2-input (pre-) amp they'd be one of the few on the market that do anymore. Combined with the inclusion of an HPF per channel, then it'd be filling a missing gap in the market, IMO, and a no-brainer for any doublers who don't already have a 2-input/2-channel amp.

Excellent point(s)!

 

[gtirard]

Funny!

Actually, it's all information gathering that may not apply to any single project but more trying to gauge what players are looking for in the future. For example, there's been very little talk about DSP based products and I think that what's not asked for is just as important than the wants.

Interesting... But maybe our comments are biased, maybe we don't dare asking for DSP based product, because we think it's not your stuff?

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

DSP technology is ubiquitous in the audio world today. It is almost a given that it may be considered. Many users of amplifiers may not really be thinking about the underlying technology but rather just thinking about the features and functions. not how it is accomplished.

As LSM07 said, I like the idea of accommodating doublers, (I'm not one...YET). I wonder if doing so would not add too much cost for a smaller market.

 

[Jim C]

Funny!

Actually, it's all information gathering that may not apply to any single project but more trying to gauge what players are looking for in the future. For example, there's been very little talk about DSP based products and I think that what's not asked for is just as important than the wants.

I find it amazing that more players don't want to investigate a dedicated DSP based bass amp.
When you think about it, that's how a huge amount of music is recorded (perhaps most?).

If you look at all the great bass amps made, are we really only interested in a lightweight version of the past?

That's why this whole idea of pre-set voicing or sampling seems very important as there doesn't seem to be much new tonal ground left to cover with conventional electronics / equalizers. And the few exceptions (like filter based) are often available as pedals.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

DSP technology is ubiquitous in the audio world today. It is almost a given that it may be considered. Many users of amplifiers may not really be thinking about the underlying technology but rather just thinking about the features and functions. not how it is accomplished.

I for one think a DSP implementation could bring a lot to the table, but there are few examples in the bass amplifier range.

A DSP based preamp, could be a toe dipping experience. I love my Torpedo M+.
Can run it out to the board, to my IEM, to a powered speaker, or as a second input into my WD.

that said adjusting things from a touchscreen on the fly cannot replace tactile knobs, so a hybrid approach with an amp with tactile interface with a digital layer to manipulate the DSP would be ideal.

that said, an ability to save multiple “profiles” available behind a foot switch / pedalboard would be very useful.

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

For anyone who may not be familiar whit the term DSP, here is some information from one of the big names in DSP hardware that may help. Link Removed

And a little history: Digital signal processor - Wikipedia

 

[terlewine]

are we really only interested in a lightweight version of the past?

A great question!

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

I am, (for better or worse) interested in a lightweight version of the past, (but with modern features). I think that those who are not should be accommodated as well in the same amp, (and maybe us old geezers may become enlightened to new sounds), (or maybe not if we choose not to). I for one am happy to continue to wallow in my "old school" funkiness.

Now, you kids git off my lawn, dammit!

 

[Nebadon2000]

I find it amazing that more players don't want to investigate a dedicated DSP based bass amp.
When you think about it, that's how a huge amount of music is recorded (perhaps most?).

If you look at all the great bass amps made, are we really only interested in a lightweight version of the past?

That's why this whole idea of pre-set voicing or sampling seems very important as there doesn't seem to be much new tonal ground left to cover with conventional electronics / equalizers. And the few exceptions (like filter based) are often available as pedals.

Something like this;Berg Super Pre

• DSP Embedded System Controlled Bass Pre-Amp
• Their Forte' Amp claims State of the Art DSP feature also

 

[agedhorse]

Interesting... But maybe our comments are biased, maybe we don't dare asking for DSP based product, because we think it's not your stuff?

Except that I do work with DSP and was an early adopter 20 years ago in pro audio. The challenge is that in (higher end) pro audio, the expectation for digital consoles and DSP to be supportable for 10-15 years (which has been proven to be somewhat problematic and in some cases unrealistic) and that adds to the cost. After 10 years, the original purchasers have upgraded with newer models to remain competitive but in the bass industry players have become accustomed to their amps being supportable for 20-40 years and we are now seeing examples unsupportable amps with DSP and without but using proprietary SMPS/class D and that has left a sour taste in some player's mouths based on the comments that I see regularly enough.

While I would entertain DSP based, I would not be as confident in the ability to support beyond 10 years, which makes the 20-40 year lifespan model fly out the window. It's not just the chipsets, but the software updates, security management, and the speed at which that side of the industry changes, which fall under the embedded controls workspace.

Any thoughts on buying a product that may not be repairable after say 10-15 years?

 

[Rooster009]

Leave the DSP out of the equation please. Give us an Amp that will still be repairable in 20-40 years.

 

[agedhorse]

Something like this;Berg Super Pre

• DSP Embedded System Controlled Bass Pre-Amp
• Their Forte' Amp claims State of the Art DSP feature also

Yes, while being excellent examples of DSP implementation, the big questions will be the ability to support a failure 10-15 years out.

There are many examples of DSP based products being essentially disposable, I have plenty of pro audio examples that fit this category (including some very expensive DSP based wireless that fortunately I was able to find NOS DSP network communications boards for). This was only a few years after they were discontinued, I was pretty pissed because each wireless system was about $4k and I had to pay the inflated asking price for the replacement embedded processing boards. I had 2 bad board fail out of 5 units, not confidence inspiring.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Any thoughts on buying a product that may not be repairable after say 10-15 years?

I feel like that's pretty normal these days. However, if you're spending several thousand then perhaps you'd expect a longer lifespan in exchange.

 

[Jim C]

I for one think a DSP implementation could bring a lot to the table, but there are few examples in the bass amplifier range.

A DSP based preamp, could be a toe dipping experience. I love my Torpedo M+.
Can run it out to the board, to my IEM, to a powered speaker, or as a second input into my WD.

that said adjusting things from a touchscreen on the fly cannot replace tactile knobs, so a hybrid approach with an amp with tactile interface with a digital layer to manipulate the DSP would be ideal.

that said, an ability to save multiple “profiles” available behind a foot switch / pedalboard would be very useful.

I was just reminded by a TB'r that I am a dinosaur and smallish DSP bass amps (that also do PA) are available now.
Spark LIVE | 4 Channel Smart Amp & PA System

Andy, what if the DSP was only updatable for X number of years and then it could only be repaired with the original factory pre-sets? Never thought about support and amp life span. I did like the idea of future revenue for whomever really gets into this (other than Jim Bergantino).
or
What if it could only have 6 awesome bass amps pre-selected and not changeable other than EQ?
Service Centers would just re-install the original digital files if signal processing needed to be replaced.

 

[Wasnex]

Except that I do work with DSP and was an early adopter 20 years ago in pro audio. The challenge is that in (higher end) pro audio, the expectation for digital consoles and DSP to be supportable for 10-15 years (which has been proven to be somewhat problematic and in some cases unrealistic) and that adds to the cost. After 10 years, the original purchasers have upgraded with newer models to remain competitive but in the bass industry players have become accustomed to their amps being supportable for 20-40 years and we are now seeing examples unsupportable amps with DSP and without but using proprietary SMPS/class D and that has left a sour taste in some player's mouths based on the comments that I see regularly enough.

While I would entertain DSP based, I would not be as confident in the ability to support beyond 10 years, which makes the 20-40 year lifespan model fly out the window. It's not just the chipsets, but the software updates, security management, and the speed at which that side of the industry changes, which fall under the embedded controls workspace.

Any thoughts on buying a product that may not be repairable after say 10-15 years?

Example: Ashdown LB30 2.N.

I have a couple of old school older Ashdown LB30s and expect they will easily out live me. The 2.N has built-in Two Notes speaker modelling, that I would say was pretty much obsolete the day the amp was introduced. Most places list the 2.N for about $1800, which I see as way too much.

I don't really feel the need for a speaker SIM, but if I did, I would rather buy a stand alone unit that does what I want, rather than having some obsolete digital garbage cluttering up a nice little amp. When the 2.N came out, the Two Notes C.A.B. M+ was the current model. Pretty sure the C.A.B. M+ can do everything the 2.N SIM can do and much more. The C.A.B. M+ has recently been discontinued and the current model is the OPUS.

I do have some mild interest in the way Bergantino does their amps with a digital interface. I would have to play around with it to make an informed decision, but it could be very cool. However, this is not on my bucket list.

 

[agedhorse]

I was just reminded by a TB'r that I am a dinosaur and smallish DSP bass amps (that also do PA) are available now.
Spark LIVE | 4 Channel Smart Amp & PA System

Andy, what if the DSP was only updatable for X number of years and then it could only be repaired with the original factory pre-sets? Never thought about support and amp life span. I did like the idea of future revenue for whomever really gets into this (other than Jim Bergantino).
or
What if it could only have 6 awesome bass amps pre-selected and not changeable other than EQ?
Service Centers would just re-install the original digital files if signal processing needed to be replaced.

The problem is the communication protocols and the host operating systems.

For example, I have a client that still has an operating XP system just for supporting legacy control systems. The system software has not been migrated forward (a costly exercise) so everything has to be done in the legacy platform which makes support very expensive and inconvenient, but the system being controlled costs millions of dollars.

 

[ardgedee]

While I would entertain DSP based, I would not be as confident in the ability to support beyond 10 years, which makes the 20-40 year lifespan model fly out the window. It's not just the chipsets, but the software updates, security management, and the speed at which that side of the industry changes, which fall under the embedded controls workspace.

Any thoughts on buying a product that may not be repairable after say 10-15 years?

I think that's an opening for a stomp box or preamp unit. Decouple the age-sensitive component from the rest of the hardware.

(Edit: I'm reminded of the Apple iMac. Having an all in one device is nice, but the computer ages out far sooner than the display does, meaning one eventually has to chuck a perfectly good LCD before its time. Doesn't matter if it's a relatively low cost part of the system, it's still a blatant waste.)

 

[gtirard]

I think if we open the discussion to DSP based amps, we can split in several questions:

1. Lifetime. Can be split in 3 sub-questions:

1.A. Repairability, as pointed out by Agedhorse. I think I can accept 7-10 years, but that's just me.

1.B. Software updates. How long will the manufacturer be able to offer new software updates? Line 6 has proven that they were able to provide a long and strong sotfware support for the Hellix platform IMO, but will all manufacturer be able to do the same?

1.C. Hardware compatibility for in/out ports, such as midi, usb etc. Imagine you just bought a $1500 amp with a USB 2 port, just when the whole industry is moving fast to USB-C?

2. User interface

We're talking about bass amps, not computers. I don't want a LCD screen and paging into menus and sub-menu, I don't even care for a iPhone or laptop editor, I want physical knobs.

If the amp is using DSP and modeling technologies to provide great sounds, perfect. Ideally I could install 3 amp profiles (let's say SVT, Mesa 400+ and DB751 - or something new?), then select them with one knob, and use other classic EQ controls. The amp should look and feel iike a classic amp, with real knobs and no LCD screen, even if these knobs are just controlling a software and DSP. Well, that's my view of the topic, but I'm sure we all have different opinions.

3. The purpose / features

Current amps are so good today, what feature do we really need from a digital amp? Again, to each his own, but personally I don't care for the ability to change the tone of my amp between songs, or in the middle of a song. I've tried this with the HX Stomp and I don't like it (it changes the presence of the bass in the mix, not my thing - I prefer to keep the same tone during the gig and just add a couple of pedals here and there).

So all in all, not many benefits for me compared to the drawbacks.

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

DSP, and other newer technologies are a (disposable) deal with the devil. My old basic all tube amps that date back to 1960 or before have proven to be completely repairable even to this day, but I don't expect that from anything designed and manufactured today. I own three iPads. They are wonders of technology. The oldest one works perfectly but has been rendered obsolete by Apple Corps policy of discontinuing the ability for it to connect to the App Store and being updated in any way. It still works for most uses. I'm not dissatisfied because of that. I got my moneys worth out of it and bought newer models. It is what it is.

Think about the stuff from Kemper, and Fractal. Wonderful stuff. Not for me, but when we do sound for people using it I can see why they do, and it seems to really work. Someday it will be in a landfill, while I bet my vintage amps will still be in use.

The owners manual for my 1963 Hammond organ has some words in it that say something like "your new Hammond organ has been designed to outlive the original owner", and that has proven to be the case. I am on the last mile of my inexorable march to the grave so I expect that my D800 will likely outlive me as well, but I don't really care if that turns out to be the case or not.

 

[agedhorse]

As a point of reliability and serviceability, ALL of the class D amps I designed for Genz Benz are still 100% supported as they approach 20 years. The parts are still 100% available and even current… with the exception to the DSP, ADC and DAC used in the effects section of the acoustic amps. That said, I still have plenty in stock but when they are gone, they will become less supportable.