Premium price for premium sound?

[obimark]

max money, to me, equals max comfort. You CANNOT build me a squier that plays like my Fodera or Smith, nor can you build a GK that is as light or sounds as good as my Berg + Tecamp combo. Seriously.

It could be done- but the cost to do it would exceed what it is worth. With time and the right tools a master craftsman could mod my Squier P to play and sound like your Fodera or Smith. (and in a band setting noone would hear the difference).

The real question is how much of the Squier would be left?

The other thing to keep in mind is what we widely consider the greatest bassists of all time played on crappily set up basses with crazy high action and other problems- Jaco. Entwistle. and of course Jamerson- I believe his strings were like 3/8 of an inch off the fretboard!

 

[Cole Louis Allar]

Eh, statements like this are misleading. While I'm sure your gear is unique I see amazing bass players in bands using cheap gear and they sound incredible. I also see amateurs playing expensive gear and they s*ck b*lls.

Yeah lol it's better to play well than to have a good quality bass. Not that having a nice bass isn't nice, cuz it is, but the real thing factors down to "can you play"? I have a fender and a squier, and I've seen bassists better and worse than me and others. One of the worst bassists I have seen on YouTube had a Fender MIA Jazz bass and a Galian Kruger(sorry if I spelled it wrong) bass rig.

 

[lfmn16]

max money, to me, equals max comfort. You CANNOT build me a squier that plays like my Fodera or Smith, nor can you build a GK that is as light or sounds as good as my Berg + Tecamp combo. Seriously.

+1

The real basis for these arguments is that some people can't accept that something is only 'good.' It's like 'good' is an insult. It has to be 'as good as something that's actually better.'

And to the 'it's better to be a good player with a cheap bass than a bad player with a good bass' crowd - it's not one or the other. The fact that Victor Wooten plays a Fodera tells you it's best to be a good player with a good bass.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

This is one of those "Third Rail" issues on TB, so I should probably shut my yap, but I'm an idiot, so here goes:

Having played both Squier and MIM Fender, I can't see, hear, or feel enough difference in sound or playability to justify the big difference in price. There IS a difference, but it's pretty subtle between Squier/MIM. The MIA's are definitely better finished, nicer fret job, better pups and wiring, rolled fingerboard edges, etc., all lots of nice touches that, at least for me, don't add up to enough to justify the huge upcharge from a Squier to an MIA. YMMV blah blah....I think you can upgrade a CV or VM series to equal an MIM for less than the price offset, and to rival an MIA for a bit more money, but you'll never get back your return on investment in resale, so it's kind of a waste unless you never plan on selling the bass.

 

[Ric5]

so recently, I saw this form that has something to do with squiers being good values, and his premium price is really worth it for premium quality. I replied on the form seeing that in my opinion, Squiers are a better value because they essentially sounded the same as fenders in my opinion. Someone replied to my comment, saying "yes. The sound is essentially the same. It's that darn fender sticker were paying for." Which I kind of sensed it was sarcasm. But seriously guys. Premium price for premium sound? Or do people just seem to have more money than sense these days?

Premium price buys premium workmanship and premium quality control, but it does not premium tone.

 

[castlev]

It could be done- but the cost to do it would exceed what it is worth. With time and the right tools a master craftsman could mod my Squier P to play and sound like your Fodera or Smith. (and in a band setting noone would hear the difference).

The real question is how much of the Squier would be left?

The other thing to keep in mind is what we widely consider the greatest bassists of all time played on crappily set up basses with crazy high action and other problems- Jaco. Entwistle. and of course Jamerson- I believe his strings were like 3/8 of an inch off the fretboard!

For most players all it would take is a high quality pickup swap and a good setup

+1

The real basis for these arguments is that some people can't accept that something is only 'good.' It's like 'good' is an insult. It has to be 'as good as.'

And to the 'it's better to be a good player with a cheap bass than a bad player with a good bass' crowd - it's not one or the other. The fact that Victor Wooten plays a Fodera tells you it's best to be a good player with a good bass.

Victor was an amazing player before playing the Fodera. It wasn't even like he walked into a music shop and bought it because he fell in love. He loved the bass he had. While in a studio the engineer didn't like how his equipment sounded, and had the Fodera brought into the session for Victor to use. Now Victor is on the payroll as an endorse.
Obviously if you have the money buy the best gear you can, but talent is FAR more important than the price of your equipment.

 

[lfmn16]

Obviously if you have the money buy the best gear you can, but talent is FAR more important than the price of your equipment.

I don't hear anyone saying talent isn't far more important than equipment in sounding good, but the instrument you play and your talent are totally unrelated. For some reason it has become a standard on every Talkbass thread about inexpensive basses to link the two as some kind of justification for inexpensive instruments.

 

[danosix]

so recently, I saw this form that has something to do with squiers being good values, and his premium price is really worth it for premium quality. I replied on the form seeing that in my opinion, Squiers are a better value because they essentially sounded the same as fenders in my opinion. Someone replied to my comment, saying "yes. The sound is essentially the same. It's that darn fender sticker were paying for." Which I kind of sensed it was sarcasm. But seriously guys. Premium price for premium sound? Or do people just seem to have more money than sense these days?

To try to wade in on the reasonable side of the debate. You are both right. A squire gives you the essence of the Fender sound, look and feel. As such it is a very good value for between a quarter to a half of the equivalent American version. On the other hand - premium price for premium sound is also very true - as a rule (nothing is absolute when one is talking about wood and aesthetic preference) the American will sound better, last better (at least in terms of hardware) and feel better. You 0pay for this and you pay more than the objective difference - because to make a noticeable difference once you've gotten to a reasonable quality takes a lot more attention to detail. Add in the fact that Amrican workers require things like living wages and Amerian plants have to conform tomuch stricter safety and environmental standards and the price keeps getting bigger. But whoever said you pay for the decal is right too - the Modern Playuer Fenders are coming off the exact same likes as the Squires and they cost about 20% more because they say Fender. This is partly snob appeal (don't snicker) and partly because when the people that buy these go to sell them they'll get a larger portion of their money back.
And finally - yes, there is a LOT more money out there than sense these days - witness multi-hundred dollar tickets to bands like One-direction or the pop-up Jordan store for the MBA All-star week where they were selling shoes made in China for virtually the same price as any other running shoe for many hundreds of dollars and people were lined up around the block!

 

[castlev]

I don't hear anyone saying talent isn't far more important than equipment in sounding good, but the instrument you play and your talent are totally unrelated. For some reason it has become a standard on every Talkbass thread about inexpensive basses to link the two as some kind of justification for inexpensive instruments.

Actually the OP was asking the question "Premium price for premium sound? Or do people just seem to have more money than sense these days?"
To me that means the OP wants to know if expensive gear is necessary to sound good? Well the other factor to sounding good besides gear, is talent, and I've suggest that talent plays a larger role in how good a player sounds. I'm not sure why you believe talent is unrelated to sounding good, or why you believe it is a justification for inexpensive instruments. Inexpensive instruments need no justification, they play, they work, they do what they're supposed to, and talented players sound good on everything.

 

[Ulf Buck]

There is a certain model and a certain time span of basses that sound better than any other and they are reasonably priced. I will reveal this model after I acquire one in each color and 2 black ones as they don't often appear for sale.

 

[hrodbert696]

max money, to me, equals max comfort. You CANNOT build me a squier that plays like my Fodera or Smith, nor can you build a GK that is as light or sounds as good as my Berg + Tecamp combo. Seriously.

I think maybe the real point in this post that everyone's been ganging up on is that the price may reflect considerations other than tone. Sometimes it's the fit and finish, the fretwork, the balance, the contour of body and neck, or just the aesthetics of an exotic piece of wood that you're paying the premium for.

We should all agree that the skill of the player and the quality of the bass are separate matters and you can't really set them against each other. Yes, a great player will sound good on a cheap bass and a crappy player will sound like crap on a premium bass. That has nothing to do with the actual topic, which is whether there's a meaningful difference between cheap and premium.

EDIT: the one way it is relevant is that a person who's been playing a while, has some skill, maybe is making their living at music or at least has had time to save up, is more likely to be thinking, "What's the perfect bass for me?", and to be willing to spend the money to get it. A beginner is likely to be younger and have less skill and money both. So in general you do see the premium basses in the hands of better bassists.

 

[castlev]

I think maybe the real point in this post that everyone's been ganging up on is that the price may reflect considerations other than tone. Sometimes it's the fit and finish, the fretwork, the balance, the contour of body and neck, or just the aesthetics of an exotic piece of wood that you're paying the premium for.

We should all agree that the skill of the player and the quality of the bass are separate matters and you can't really set them against each other. Yes, a great player will sound good on a cheap bass and a crappy player will sound like crap on a premium bass. That has nothing to do with the actual topic, which is whether there's a meaningful difference between cheap and premium.

The difference between cheap and premium lies in the talent of the player, they are directly related.

 

[40Hz]

Sometimes you don't know how good or bad of a deal you have until you have had that instrument for 20 years.

This! And I've got enough years in to know it to be true.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Does anyone know what % or specific parts of an MIA Fender are actually made in the USA? I'm all for supporting American business, but the whole "Made in America" claim has gotten so loose as to be meaningless for some products. Rickenbacker, for all its faults and abrasive corporate personality, is the only mass producing American guitar company I can think of that is entirely American made, except for some hardware like the Schaller tuners, misc screws, etc. Their recent QC problems indicates that paying a premium price does NOT guarentee premium workmanship, but that's true on some other high end basses too. If you can afford it, supporting American industry is a perfectly valid reason to buy MIA over Squier.

 

[hrodbert696]

The difference between cheap and premium lies in the talent of the player, they are directly related.

Added my edit after you quoted me - not sure if the edit is what you mean... or what DO you mean? I don't see a direct relationship, I see an indirect one (per my edit). A spoiled rich kid or a stockbroker hobbyist with no particular skill can buy a $5000 Fodera just because "I want the best" and they can afford it. A working pro who's living hand-to-mouth can rock a $300 Squier and make it sing (I know, I've seen it). So what's the "direct" relationship?

 

[lfmn16]

I'm not sure why you believe talent is unrelated to sounding good

Did you actually read my post???? I said, I don't hear anyone saying talent isn't far more important than equipment in sounding good," meaning I agree.

or why you believe it is a justification for inexpensive instruments.

If they aren't using it for a justification, why does it come up in every thread about inexpensive instruments???

Inexpensive instruments need no justification, they play, they work, they do what they're supposed to, and talented players sound good on everything.

I agree, but a large number of threads on TB are devoted to that exact topic - why a Squier is just as good as an MIA and some really outlandish claims. Some people just don't think 'good' is good enough. Their cheap instrument has to be better than one costing 3 or 4 times more.

The difference between cheap and premium lies in the talent of the player, they are directly related.

 

[castlev]

Added my edit after you quoted me - not sure if the edit is what you mean... or what DO you mean? I don't see a direct relationship, I see an indirect one (per my edit). A spoiled rich kid or a stockbroker hobbyist with no particular skill can buy a $5000 Fodera just because "I want the best" and they can afford it. A working pro who's living hand-to-mouth can rock a $300 Squier and make it sing (I know, I've seen it). So what's the "direct" relationship?

The direct relationship exists because without talent, no bass will give you premium sound. Remember the OP was asking what is required for premium sound. My suggestion that talent is directly related with gear was in response to someone who posted about the superior craftsmanship of his gear, which truthfully only sounds as good as he can play.
That is not to suggest he can't play, it is to suggest the OP doesn't need to feel discouraged about his gear. There is much more excitement in impressing yourself with your own playing on the gear we own, than there is to drop a couple grand on an instrument that disappoints you because it only sounds good when someone else plays it.

 

[40Hz]

The difference is people who want attention vs people who want information. Posting threads before searching... Like people who always talk and never listen. If people really wanted an "answer" they could read a bit and, if still uninformed, come up with better questions and further general bass knowledge. Instead, people like having that little red icon pop up when they log in...

These TB trends are easy enough to see. There, I said it.

And the search function at TB has to be one of the clumsiest and least intuitive examples I've seen for how not to do a search feature if you expect it to actually get used by most people.

And I'm speaking from the perspective of an IT person who does this stuff for a living.

"So there!" yourself Mr. Pudge. Now I've said it too.

 

[castlev]

Did you actually read my post???? I said, I don't hear anyone saying talent isn't far more important than equipment in sounding good," meaning I agree.

If they aren't using it for a justification, why does it come up in every thread about inexpensive instruments???

I agree, but a large number of threads on TB are devoted to that exact topic - why a Squier is just as good as an MIA and some really outlandish claims. Some people just don't think 'good' is good enough. Their cheap instrument has to be better than one costing 3 or 4 times more.

Lets mock with Simpsons illustrations because that makes us look smarter.

 

[lfmn16]

Lets mock with Simpsons illustrations because that makes us look smarter.

On to my ignore list you go. We'll both be happier.