After having read through this thread, I have to wonder...Who cares what a five year old wears? I'm off work tonight and whether that kid is in a dress or not, I will not be thinking of him.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Princess Boy
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
- Start date
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
those guys that i posted were in niger - not sure of the tribe. cool culture though.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
i would do the same, i think. i would also tell him that if that's what he wants, then to heck with what the other folks say.
giving guidance is appropriate i think, but forbidding things would be bad, i think, and i wouldn't do it.
again, though, my experience is with a little girl, and our culture is a bit more flexible when it comes to girls in this particular arena.
Hypothetical question:
Suppose your little 1st grade child suddenly becomes interested in a particular subject and while reading a bunch of books on that subject (and seeing pictures in the books) now wants to dress up like some of those characters.
How about if this 6 year old child wants to dress up as a pirate every day when going off to school? Or a caveman? Suppose this kid saw a picture of a Klansman and thought that would be a cool outfit to wear to school? Or how about some superhero like Spiderman or Batgirl? Lots of kids want to be superheros and costumes for this are common especially around Halloween. If your kid wants to wear their Halloween costume to school every day do you allow it?
I know I would have a talk with my kid about what is "appropriate" school clothing and if anyone gave me grief that I was preventing my child from being him or her self and causing irreparable mental harm I would tell that person to **** off and mind their own business.
Children are not just miniature adults and they need to be taught what is expected of their behavior and that certain things aren't appropriate. And Halloween is only one day a year.
Suppose your little 1st grade child suddenly becomes interested in a particular subject and while reading a bunch of books on that subject (and seeing pictures in the books) now wants to dress up like some of those characters.
How about if this 6 year old child wants to dress up as a pirate every day when going off to school? Or a caveman? Suppose this kid saw a picture of a Klansman and thought that would be a cool outfit to wear to school? Or how about some superhero like Spiderman or Batgirl? Lots of kids want to be superheros and costumes for this are common especially around Halloween. If your kid wants to wear their Halloween costume to school every day do you allow it?
I know I would have a talk with my kid about what is "appropriate" school clothing and if anyone gave me grief that I was preventing my child from being him or her self and causing irreparable mental harm I would tell that person to **** off and mind their own business.
Children are not just miniature adults and they need to be taught what is expected of their behavior and that certain things aren't appropriate. And Halloween is only one day a year.
I misspelled their name, they are the Wodaabe, a subgroup of the Fulani who do live in Niger.
Didn't read the whole thread, but from my very limited experience with children I would think this kid has a much better chance of being accepted by his peers if he has always been the "boy in the dress" than if he just shows up one day in high school wearing a dress after years of dressing like a boy "should". 6 year olds are much more open minded than 16 year olds.
The thing of it is, there is a chance that this could be something else going on with the child. Again, I say, it's not a costume at all, it's still perfectly normal clothes, just not for the gender the child was given.Hypothetical question:
Suppose your little 1st grade child suddenly becomes interested in a particular subject and while reading a bunch of books on that subject (and seeing pictures in the books) now wants to dress up like some of those characters.
How about if this 6 year old child wants to dress up as a pirate every day when going off to school? Or a caveman? Suppose this kid saw a picture of a Klansman and thought that would be a cool outfit to wear to school? Or how about some superhero like Spiderman or Batgirl? Lots of kids want to be superheros and costumes for this are common especially around Halloween. If your kid wants to wear their Halloween costume to school every day do you allow it?
I know I would have a talk with my kid about what is "appropriate" school clothing and if anyone gave me grief that I was preventing my child from being him or her self and causing irreparable mental harm I would tell that person to **** off and mind their own business.
Children are not just miniature adults and they need to be taught what is expected of their behavior and that certain things aren't appropriate. And Halloween is only one day a year.
hbarcat said:Children are not just miniature adults and they need to be taught what is expected of their behavior and that certain things aren't appropriate. And Halloween is only one day a year.
I would argue against this. Instead of viewing a child as a pet that you train right from wrong, why not view them as a human being? This isn't "in gonna be Batman when I grow up", this is "i feel comfortable in traditionally female clothes". I'd say the kid is more adult like than his parents, who choose to parade him as a cute puppy to sell their book.
A few thoughts.
First of all, gender identity and roles, including sexuality and transsexuality, are in my opinion not genetic givens but social constructs. I am rather baffled by the state of discussion in the culture at large, which spends half the time telling us how all this is socially constructed and then turns around, talking out the other side of its mouth, that non-conforming sexual identities are somehow fixed and innate. You can't have it both ways. People's personalities evolve and develop in complex ways, and one of the most important factors is the examples and boundaries set by parents. That doesn't mean kids are putty in their parents' hands, but parents do play an important role in shaping identities.
Now, I have two daughters and a son, now in the 12-15 age range, and a new daughter born three years ago. Before the toddler's birth, when my son was in the 4-6 year age range, his main social interaction was with his sisters in the 6-8 range. I would come home and find him running around the house with makeup, clip on jewelery and a tutu. In fact, "Williatutu" became a nickname for him that his sisters still pull out from time to time to embarrass him.
I actually got worried that I was going to have to wrestle with all the issues that could come with having a gay son. If that's how he turned out, it's how he turned out, and I love him no matter what, but it's not how I would have envisioned my life. I had folks making comments to me that they thought he was having too much female socialization and needed to get away from his sisters and play with boys more.
But we never tried to stop him or prevent him from playing this way. The clothes we got for him and dressed him in were ordinary boys' clothes, and he and I did ordinary father-son things together. He could play with his sisters and dress up in tutus all he wanted. After a while, he simply moved on from it -- went to school, made friends with other boys.
The point is that I do think parents need to model positive gender roles for their children to learn from. But there's no need for them to crack down on kids who are exploring "how the other half lives," forbid them to play a certain way or wear certain things. It's part of their growing up. That kind of strict crackdown mentality can and does often backfire -- it creates a struggle between the child and the parent which ends up reifying itself in the child's consciousness as part of their identity.
I for one do not want to live in a society where parents don't think they have an obligation to teach their children right from wrong. That IS treating them as a human being -- not as a "pet."
First of all, gender identity and roles, including sexuality and transsexuality, are in my opinion not genetic givens but social constructs. I am rather baffled by the state of discussion in the culture at large, which spends half the time telling us how all this is socially constructed and then turns around, talking out the other side of its mouth, that non-conforming sexual identities are somehow fixed and innate. You can't have it both ways. People's personalities evolve and develop in complex ways, and one of the most important factors is the examples and boundaries set by parents. That doesn't mean kids are putty in their parents' hands, but parents do play an important role in shaping identities.
Now, I have two daughters and a son, now in the 12-15 age range, and a new daughter born three years ago. Before the toddler's birth, when my son was in the 4-6 year age range, his main social interaction was with his sisters in the 6-8 range. I would come home and find him running around the house with makeup, clip on jewelery and a tutu. In fact, "Williatutu" became a nickname for him that his sisters still pull out from time to time to embarrass him.
I actually got worried that I was going to have to wrestle with all the issues that could come with having a gay son. If that's how he turned out, it's how he turned out, and I love him no matter what, but it's not how I would have envisioned my life. I had folks making comments to me that they thought he was having too much female socialization and needed to get away from his sisters and play with boys more.
But we never tried to stop him or prevent him from playing this way. The clothes we got for him and dressed him in were ordinary boys' clothes, and he and I did ordinary father-son things together. He could play with his sisters and dress up in tutus all he wanted. After a while, he simply moved on from it -- went to school, made friends with other boys.
The point is that I do think parents need to model positive gender roles for their children to learn from. But there's no need for them to crack down on kids who are exploring "how the other half lives," forbid them to play a certain way or wear certain things. It's part of their growing up. That kind of strict crackdown mentality can and does often backfire -- it creates a struggle between the child and the parent which ends up reifying itself in the child's consciousness as part of their identity.
I for one do not want to live in a society where parents don't think they have an obligation to teach their children right from wrong. That IS treating them as a human being -- not as a "pet."
my statement might have came off differently from how i meant it. i'm not saying that children don't have to be raised. It's very true. But there is a difference between rasiing a child as a human being and training them right and wrong. Had you said "no williatutu! you are a male! bad boy! time out!" that would be wrong in my eyes. but you guided him, and taught him, and he came out how her came out. that's treating a child as a human being, not as a pet that needs to be "trained the right way" to function in society.
hope that makes more sense.
ah yes, the white knight of the playground. i feel bad for him, because of his parents....>_>
Klansman outfit: no. Maybe that seems inconsistent with my not having a problem with a boy wearing a dress, but to me the two scenarios are worlds apart. I think that should be obvious...Klan garb is blatantly disrespectful/hateful/exclusionary/etc...wearing a dress, is just wearing a dress.
Spiderman/Batgirl/Aquaman/etc.: I probably wouldn't care too much at 3, 4, or 5 unless it became disruptive to other kids, which it could be. I'm not I also think of this as different - a costume versus clothes, or the difference between respecting different forms of dress and allowing one kid to wear play clothes when others cannot.
There was a little boy in my daughter's preschool who wore a garbageman outfit (reflective vest) every single day. I thought it was cool...it didn't cause any problems and I would've liked that when I was 3.
Kids aren't little adults, which is why I'm not going to make my son wear a shirt and tie for a while. Of course there are limits - I'm not going to bring him to a funeral dressed as Evil Knievel. That would be disrespectful; I don't put wearing a dress at 5 in that same category. And, if he needed to wear something else for say, gym, he would.
I also never said anything about other parents causing harm, or that I would give anyone else grief. On the other hand, it seems that some people object to what I would allow my kids to wear; no biggie. I'm not telling anyone to **** off.
Spiderman/Batgirl/Aquaman/etc.: I probably wouldn't care too much at 3, 4, or 5 unless it became disruptive to other kids, which it could be. I'm not I also think of this as different - a costume versus clothes, or the difference between respecting different forms of dress and allowing one kid to wear play clothes when others cannot.
There was a little boy in my daughter's preschool who wore a garbageman outfit (reflective vest) every single day. I thought it was cool...it didn't cause any problems and I would've liked that when I was 3.
Kids aren't little adults, which is why I'm not going to make my son wear a shirt and tie for a while. Of course there are limits - I'm not going to bring him to a funeral dressed as Evil Knievel. That would be disrespectful; I don't put wearing a dress at 5 in that same category. And, if he needed to wear something else for say, gym, he would.
I also never said anything about other parents causing harm, or that I would give anyone else grief. On the other hand, it seems that some people object to what I would allow my kids to wear; no biggie. I'm not telling anyone to **** off.
Hypothetical question:
Suppose your little 1st grade child suddenly becomes interested in a particular subject and while reading a bunch of books on that subject (and seeing pictures in the books) now wants to dress up like some of those characters.
How about if this 6 year old child wants to dress up as a pirate every day when going off to school? Or a caveman? Suppose this kid saw a picture of a Klansman and thought that would be a cool outfit to wear to school? Or how about some superhero like Spiderman or Batgirl? Lots of kids want to be superheros and costumes for this are common especially around Halloween. If your kid wants to wear their Halloween costume to school every day do you allow it?
I know I would have a talk with my kid about what is "appropriate" school clothing and if anyone gave me grief that I was preventing my child from being him or her self and causing irreparable mental harm I would tell that person to **** off and mind their own business.
Children are not just miniature adults and they need to be taught what is expected of their behavior and that certain things aren't appropriate. And Halloween is only one day a year.
As the person started that thread, I should point out that the little boy thought he was wearing a knight's helmet, and apparently, so did his teacher. His parent's made the KKK connection.
I wasn't referring to that thread. If you see what I quoted, I was responding to the post about a kid seeing a picture of a Klansman and wanting to wear the garb. We'd have a talk, and he wouldn't wear the hood...but it wouldn't be in the news.
As long as it isn't against school rules, yes.
(parent of a 5 year old kindergartener and 8 year old 3rd grader)
Ok so to those of you who feel so profoundly that it is and/or should not be appropriate for a child and/or an adult to cross gender lines in today’s society or any society for that matter, LISTEN UP.
Do you as well think that in my case as a transsexual women I should try so hard to be something I’m not that I go each day in a state of deep depression?
Do you think this is all just smoke and mirrors,
that I like many would want to change our biological and sociological gender so bad that we are willing to put up with all this world’s hatred towards Trans people, the life risking surgeries and people like you!
Do you honestly think that we would choose to knowingly put our selves through that out of choice?
So yeah if that kid is trans, the fact is that he/she would be greatly harmed by his parents telling him/her that they had to live under a gender they knew they where not.
It’s not the same as a costume.
Oh you disagree; you say?
You have a different opinion from mine.
Well to that let me just tell you that I’m not stating my opinion I’m stating what I know is fact.
I know this because I was born this way and it’s the life that I live as long as I’m here.
I also know that if you are a parent and your child is possibly Trans and you don’t take them to professional physiologist and not only that but you then turn around shun them and/or force them to be something their not!
Well that is in fact child abuse.
At first when I read through this thread I found it quite offensive, offensive I can handle.
I’ve grown quite a thick skin over the years and have learned to tolerate it.
But sometimes you just have to say enough is enough.
Why?
Because we need to realize that there are people out there that don’t have such a thick skin.
People that where abused in this manner as a child.
People that could be more then just offended by some of the posts in this thread but in fact harmed by it.
Believe it or not there are people out there that suffer what’s known as post traumatic stress disorder, stemming from the type of abuse that has been discussed in this very thread.
If someone in this situation where to read some of the posts in this thread it could cause a very real and very serious relapse.
So with that I say I’m through with this thread and frankly it is with a very strong opinion that I say I think this thread should be closed.
Do you as well think that in my case as a transsexual women I should try so hard to be something I’m not that I go each day in a state of deep depression?
Do you think this is all just smoke and mirrors,
that I like many would want to change our biological and sociological gender so bad that we are willing to put up with all this world’s hatred towards Trans people, the life risking surgeries and people like you!
Do you honestly think that we would choose to knowingly put our selves through that out of choice?
So yeah if that kid is trans, the fact is that he/she would be greatly harmed by his parents telling him/her that they had to live under a gender they knew they where not.
It’s not the same as a costume.
Oh you disagree; you say?
You have a different opinion from mine.
Well to that let me just tell you that I’m not stating my opinion I’m stating what I know is fact.
I know this because I was born this way and it’s the life that I live as long as I’m here.
I also know that if you are a parent and your child is possibly Trans and you don’t take them to professional physiologist and not only that but you then turn around shun them and/or force them to be something their not!
Well that is in fact child abuse.
At first when I read through this thread I found it quite offensive, offensive I can handle.
I’ve grown quite a thick skin over the years and have learned to tolerate it.
But sometimes you just have to say enough is enough.
Why?
Because we need to realize that there are people out there that don’t have such a thick skin.
People that where abused in this manner as a child.
People that could be more then just offended by some of the posts in this thread but in fact harmed by it.
Believe it or not there are people out there that suffer what’s known as post traumatic stress disorder, stemming from the type of abuse that has been discussed in this very thread.
If someone in this situation where to read some of the posts in this thread it could cause a very real and very serious relapse.
So with that I say I’m through with this thread and frankly it is with a very strong opinion that I say I think this thread should be closed.
I think the major question that needs to be asked, to the kid, is, why? Why do you want to wear a dress? Is it because you see mommy wearing a dress and you are emulating her because the child is still in the clingy stage? Is it just more comfortable than pants!? or is it just fun wearing a costume? ?
Is it because you don't feel like the other "boys"?
If this child is doing this by choice, as in no biological, emotional or physiological need, then this behavior is best kept at home. Children do need guidance, especially young children like this one, and determining the reason behind their behavior can make a world of difference in ensuring the child is emotionally comfortable and adjusted. If this is a physiological/emotional behavior, then the parents should support their child. If not, then then its up to the parents, but, in that case they would be setting the child up to get bullied and picked on, which will endure long after the behavior has stopped.
Is it because you don't feel like the other "boys"?
If this child is doing this by choice, as in no biological, emotional or physiological need, then this behavior is best kept at home. Children do need guidance, especially young children like this one, and determining the reason behind their behavior can make a world of difference in ensuring the child is emotionally comfortable and adjusted. If this is a physiological/emotional behavior, then the parents should support their child. If not, then then its up to the parents, but, in that case they would be setting the child up to get bullied and picked on, which will endure long after the behavior has stopped.
Just curious. Were you aware of your uh, transsexualness (is that a word?) when you were 5? I know that a lot of folks are looking at this as adults, and or as parents, but from the kids perspective, I've found 5 year olds to be pretty simple. They don't have any sexual notions yet. But that's not what we're talking about. We're you aware of how you identified with a different gender when you were that age? If so, we're you aware of the fact that it was 'different'? And if you were a parent, what would you have done? Because I think your opinion on this is quit valid in this situation. Obviously, you have issues with how your parents responded to you and your identity, but what do you think would be the healthy way to respond to this? Of course, in the best interest of the child.
I'm not attacking you, I'm just looking for a little perspective from an area in which I have no experience.
I'm so fully not concerned with crossing gender lines that it's just not funny. Actully, for what it's worth, I've been known not only to date individuals who do, but also to dabble in it myself.
What I'm concerned about is an apparent lack of good judgement on the part of the parents/mother, as evidenced by their failure to educate their/her child as to the nature of the society in which he lives.
I'll give you an example: I work in a government office. I wear a jacket and tie to work, every day. It is expected. It is required. Colleagues and coworkers have been disciplined and even fired for failing to conform to professional standards of dress and deportment.
It's not just government that does this. Many private-sector organizations have guidelines regarding attire, as do many clubs (gym shoes in a fitness club, for example), schools, professional groups (cops, soldiers, lawyers), and even churches.
The simple fact is, regardless of what you want or what you feel or what you think, sometimes you cannot have your way.
Children need to learn this.
If this child is allowed to mature having always had a complete sense of absolute freedom of attire, he will be denied myriad opportunities throughout his life as a result.
Is this right? No.
Is this fair? No.
Is it just the way it is? Yes.
Is it the parent's responsibility to ensure that their child does not make career-limiting moves while under their care and guidance? Yes.
When taking into consideration the best way to care for my own 5 year old, "making career-limiting moves" isn't even on the radar yet.
