Princess Boy

[R. Laevinus]

When taking into consideration the best way to care for my own 5 year old, "making career-limiting moves" isn't even on the radar yet.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Perhaps I should have used a different turn of phrase, but you do catch my drift, no? Say, for example, this child wishes to attend a prestigious private school, and say, for the sake of argument, that the family can afford it.

Kid traipses into admissions office in dress. Kid gets thrown out. Kid takes school to court for prejudice/hate crime/whatever. Court throws case out because either the school as a private business has the right to decline customers for any or for no reason, OR because they have better lawyers.

Kid therefore is unable to follow his dream, because somebody close to him told him when he was young that it was okay to wear whatever he wanted, and never to listen to anybody who told him otherwise - and he believed them.

It could happen.

 

[onosson]

I catch your drift ... I just kind of feel that people are blowing this waaaay out of proportion.

You mentioned kids not being able to get their way all the time. I don't see where there's any evidence this kid doesn't know that he can't have his way all the time. Sometimes kids shouldn't have their way. But sometimes, when something is really important to them, and it isn't hurting anyone, they *should* have their way.

I posted early on in this thread: parents need to pick their battles. At five years old I'm more concerned as a parent with healthy diet and exercise, good hygiene, manners, reading etc. etc. Proper attire is a concern, but there is a lot of room to cut them some leeway on that, at this age.

 

[aborgman]

I'm sorry to hear that.

Perhaps I should have used a different turn of phrase, but you do catch my drift, no? Say, for example, this child wishes to attend a prestigious private school, and say, for the sake of argument, that the family can afford it.

Kid traipses into admissions office in dress. Kid gets thrown out. Kid takes school to court for prejudice/hate crime/whatever. Court throws case out because either the school as a private business has the right to decline customers for any or for no reason, OR because they have better lawyers.

Kid therefore is unable to follow his dream, because somebody close to him told him when he was young that it was okay to wear whatever he wanted, and never to listen to anybody who told him otherwise - and he believed them.

It could happen.

Kid wants to wear dress. Kid can't because of repressive parents. Kid therefore is unable to follow his dream, because somebody close to him told him when he was young that it wasn't okay to wear whatever he wanted...

What is the difference?

 

[R. Laevinus]

I catch your drift ... I just kind of feel that people are blowing this waaaay out of proportion.

You mentioned kids not being able to get their way all the time. I don't see where there's any evidence this kid doesn't know that he can't have his way all the time. Sometimes kids shouldn't have their way. But sometimes, when something is really important to them, and it isn't hurting anyone, they *should* have their way.

I posted early on in this thread: parents need to pick their battles. At five years old I'm more concerned as a parent with healthy diet and exercise, good hygiene, manners, reading etc. etc. Proper attire is a concern, but there is a lot of room to cut them some leeway on that, at this age.

Excellent point. Thank you for mentioning that.

Kid wants to wear dress. Kid can't because of repressive parents. Kid therefore is unable to follow his dream, because somebody close to him told him when he was young that it wasn't okay to wear whatever he wanted...

What is the difference?

The difference is that I honestly do not believe that a child at that age, even a genius child, truly comprehends the complexity of the world in which he lives, or even is capable of having long-term goals and aspirations.

Most of the boys I grew up with, myself included, thought our plumbing was only good for drawing on snow until we were about ten. We didn't comprehend the concept of sexuality until later, and some of my generation still haven't managed to comprehend that gender and sexuality are not necessarily linked.

I absolutely don't believe for a second that this kid understands himself as a sexual person. Not for an instant. Is he potentially aware that he's 'different'? Well, maybe yes. But wearing a dress is only going to make him different-er.

 

[aborgman]

The difference is that I honestly do not believe that a child at that age, even a genius child, truly comprehends the complexity of the world in which he lives, or even is capable of having long-term goals and aspirations.

I agree.

Which means he ain't aspiring to that prestigious private school either.

Aspirations, when it comes to a 5 year old - are completely about the parent.

Most of the boys I grew up with, myself included, thought our plumbing was only good for drawing on snow until we were about ten. We didn't comprehend the concept of sexuality until later, and some of my generation still haven't managed to comprehend that gender and sexuality are not necessarily linked.

While your average 5 year old doesn't comprehend sexuality, most of them have a surprisingly good grasp on gender.

 

[pie_man_25]

I'm so fully not concerned with crossing gender lines that it's just not funny. Actully, for what it's worth, I've been known not only to date individuals who do, but also to dabble in it myself.

What I'm concerned about is an apparent lack of good judgement on the part of the parents/mother, as evidenced by their failure to educate their/her child as to the nature of the society in which he lives.

I'll give you an example: I work in a government office. I wear a jacket and tie to work, every day. It is expected. It is required. Colleagues and coworkers have been disciplined and even fired for failing to conform to professional standards of dress and deportment.

It's not just government that does this. Many private-sector organizations have guidelines regarding attire, as do many clubs (gym shoes in a fitness club, for example), schools, professional groups (cops, soldiers, lawyers), and even churches.

The simple fact is, regardless of what you want or what you feel or what you think, sometimes you cannot have your way.

Children need to learn this.

If this child is allowed to mature having always had a complete sense of absolute freedom of attire, he will be denied myriad opportunities throughout his life as a result.

Is this right? No.
Is this fair? No.

Is it just the way it is? Yes.

Is it the parent's responsibility to ensure that their child does not make career-limiting moves while under their care and guidance? Yes.

I'm with you on this one, unfortunately the society in which we live has expectations of us - to show up to work on time, in a pleasant disposition, and dressed in clean, professional and appropriate attire. Of course some jobs do not require this. There is also a big difference between "gender confusion" I think it's called, and some kid playing "dress up" quite literally.

I'm actually quite surprised this made the news at all, if it were some girl dressing up as a guy and having short hair this would be pretty obscure.

 

[SamanthaCay]

Just curious. Were you aware of your uh, transsexualness (is that a word?) when you were 5?

Transsexualness no, transsexualism yes
I did not understand the meaning at 5 I had not herd the word transsexual
but I most deffinetly understood that something was wrong and that I didn’t feel like a little boy nor did I like being treated as one. That was the result of questions I had as a child of,
why are my sisters different? why is mommy different?
And then later after I had been disciplined and told that I was a boy and not a girl came, why am I a boy?
I did not know why at the time but I sure as hell knew I was uncomfortable.

I know that a lot of folks are looking at this as adults, and or as parents, but from the kid’s perspective, I've found 5 year olds to be pretty simple. They don't have any sexual notions yet. But that's not what we're talking about. We're you aware of how you identified with a different gender when you were that age?

Like you said 5 year olds are pretty simple and at that time the only things I had internalized was the above questions and that I felt bad.

If so, we're you aware of the fact that it was 'different'?

Different from my family yes different from anyone else no.
As at five I only really remember having had contact with my immediate family on that level.

And if you were a parent, what would you have done? Because I think your opinion on this is quit valid in this situation. Obviously, you have issues with how your parents responded to you and your identity, but what do you think would be the healthy way to respond to this? Of course, in the best interest of the child.

I'm not attacking you, I'm just looking for a little perspective from an area in which I have no experience.

I believe I already drew that one out pretty well earlier in this thread but maybe at least since you have forgotten or not read it I will repeat myself and try to in a more clear and detailed manner.

If your child is showing an interest in presenting him or her self in an opposite gender from that of there biological one and continues this over a period of time you might

A: try and explain to them in a calm and simple manner of what a boy is and what a girl is.
This doesn’t mean you talk biology to them just maybe for example take out on of they’re books that has male and female characters and get some q&a going about girls and boys. This may just give you a pretty good idea of whether or not they understand the difference. and if they are ok with it or not.
or
B: just simply let it go, don’t encourage it and don’t discourage it.
If you do this you will find that in time as they develop a better understanding of the more sociological aspects of boys and girls and how that relates to the biological aspects.
That they, if they are not trans will be more inclined to follow the curb.
Although if they’re going on 8 or 9 and still not quite following the curb, it would most likely be a good time to take them to see a physiologist.
That specializes not only in pediatric care but gender related issues as well.
Don’t take them to see Freud!
If it comes to that you should also know that it still doesn’t necessarily mean your kid is trans.
It could also just be that in the way of learning the differences both sociological and biological between boy and girl are taking it’s time in your childs life.
Doesn’t mean your kid has a learning disability either although it could.
Does that help?

Oh and maki,
While I got you here and we are kinda on the subject.
I was with a couple friends the other day, who are also trans and we where discussing the issue of the t word. (tranny)
It was something I had not thought of in quite a wile,
but believe it or not there are trans folks out there that think of it as a derogatory term and find it’s use to be quite offensive.
It made me think of some of the posts that have been made by myself as well as you in which it was used in a joke about Thai trannies.
So with that I would like to ask would it be ok if we where to reframe from the use of that term in the future.
I know that after thinking more about it I would like to myself.
I’m tiered of righting,
Samantha.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Transsexualness no, transsexualism yes
I did not understand the meaning at 5 I had not herd the word transsexual
but I most deffinetly understood that something was wrong and that I didn’t feel like a little boy nor did I like being treated as one. That was the result of questions I had as a child of,
why are my sisters different? why is mommy different?
And then later after I had been disciplined and told that I was a boy and not a girl came, why am I a boy?
I did not know why at the time but I sure as hell knew I was uncomfortable.



Like you said 5 year olds are pretty simple and at that time the only things I had internalized was the above questions and that I felt bad.



Different from my family yes different from anyone else no.
As at five I only really remember having had contact with my immediate family on that level.



I believe I already drew that one out pretty well earlier in this thread but maybe at least since you have forgotten or not read it I will repeat myself and try to in a more clear and detailed manner.

If your child is showing an interest in presenting him or her self in an opposite gender from that of there biological one and continues this over a period of time you might

A: try and explain to them in a calm and simple manner of what a boy is and what a girl is.
This doesn’t mean you talk biology to them just maybe for example take out on of they’re books that has male and female characters and get some q&a going about girls and boys. This may just give you a pretty good idea of whether or not they understand the difference. and if they are ok with it or not.
or
B: just simply let it go, don’t encourage it and don’t discourage it.
If you do this you will find that in time as they develop a better understanding of the more sociological aspects of boys and girls and how that relates to the biological aspects.
That they, if they are not trans will be more inclined to follow the curb.
Although if they’re going on 8 or 9 and still not quite following the curb, it would most likely be a good time to take them to see a physiologist.
That specializes not only in pediatric care but gender related issues as well.
Don’t take them to see Freud!
If it comes to that you should also know that it still doesn’t necessarily mean your kid is trans.
It could also just be that in the way of learning the differences both sociological and biological between boy and girl are taking it’s time in your childs life.
Doesn’t mean your kid has a learning disability either although it could.
Does that help?

Oh and maki,
While I got you here and we are kinda on the subject.
I was with a couple friends the other day, who are also trans and we where discussing the issue of the t word. (tranny)
It was something I had not thought of in quite a wile,
but believe it or not there are trans folks out there that think of it as a derogatory term and find it’s use to be quite offensive.
It made me think of some of the posts that have been made by myself as well as you in which it was used in a joke about Thai trannies.
So with that I would like to ask would it be ok if we where to reframe from the use of that term in the future.
I know that after thinking more about it I would like to myself.
I’m tiered of righting,
Samantha.

Thanks for your response. Got a clearer take on it now.

So if we don't call them 'trannies' how do we reference people like them?

 

[Selta]

Thanks for your response. Got a clearer take on it now.

So if we don't call them 'trannies' how do we reference people like them?

Use the LGBTQ umbrella? Or just use the whole word, as the short version of it has become something of it's own...

 

[SamanthaCay]

Thanks for your response. Got a clearer take on it now.

So if we don't call them 'trannies' how do we reference people like them?

Transsexuals rather then trannies,
Transsexual rather then tranny Is usually fine.
Honestly I prefer the latter in most situations as it’s shorter and roles off the tung a bit better.
But nether the less there are those who find it offensive so I’ll try not to for the most part.
Although there are certain contexts that I think its ok like if you’re around some people you know won’t have a problem with it.
I’ve also found and I view this as being unfortunate, that in a lot of ways it has become sort of like the n word amongst many African Americans in the sense that it’s ok for us to use it but not you.
I’m all for changing this mind set yet I still feel that I need to be careful about how I go about it.
Know what I mean?

Like if you where to ever come across a trans person in the situation of being offended by that word alone un related to the context in which it was used.
You might just say hey I know it may have some roots to it but it doesn’t have to be that way.
It can just be another word. That is to say that I don’t like the idea of negative words and/or words that are viewed as being for only one class of people ya dig?

 

[MIJ-VI]

I grew up in northern Ontario. An automobile's transmission was colloquially called a 'tranny'--and a homosexual male was derisively called a 'gearbox'.

 

[onosson]

I grew up in northern Ontario. An automobile's transmission was colloquially called a 'tranny'--and a homosexual male was derisively called a 'gearbox'.

Here in Winnipeg 'tranny' still usually refers to a transmission.

 

[SamanthaCay]

lol! I've got a bad tranny in my amp

 

[MIJ-VI]

Words are fun.

 

[NateS]

does that mean that Maki is REALLLY into cars? imports?

 

[Jack]

I was going to post something, but basically just take everything that smperry said and add a +1. Maybe the boy has some complex gender issues rattling round that little brain of his and maybe he doesn't. Maybe I need to rewrite that sentence with different pronouns. You'd be surprised just how soon these kinds of issues crop up in our development. I have never met the kid so I don't feel qualified to speak on his behalf, but even though a 5 year old will not be able to formulate and verbalise "I am a transgendered individual, I was born biologically male but I self-identify as a female." he might well have a sense that something is wrong, that he is different to the other boys and that he feels better in a dress.

Maybe he is really a boy, has no concept of what he is doing and will grow up without any gender issues at all. Either way I think letting the kid wear the dress is the best course of action.

As an aside: I love how we all agree that the mom is twisted for doing this to her kid.

Also: Buchanhanbass, just so I can get your story straight (giggle). Were you born biologically male (do you possess a Y chromosome?) and now you identify as a female? I hate to pry but you're speaking a lot on the subject and I'd just appreciate a little background. You do seem open to questions.

 

[MIJ-VI]

As long as I'm hearing hits, I like AM/FM too.

 

[Kosko]

As long as the kid has good manners and isn't violent, let them do whatever they want. But they better get the chores done first. Oh and homework must be done as well, and checked by the parents!

 

[MIJ-VI]

As long as the kid has good manners and isn't violent, let them do whatever they want. But they better get the chores done first. Oh and homework must be done as well, and checked by the parents!

+1

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Transsexuals rather then trannies,
Transsexual rather then tranny Is usually fine.
Honestly I prefer the latter in most situations as it’s shorter and roles off the tung a bit better.
But nether the less there are those who find it offensive so I’ll try not to for the most part.
Although there are certain contexts that I think its ok like if you’re around some people you know won’t have a problem with it.
I’ve also found and I view this as being unfortunate, that in a lot of ways it has become sort of like the n word amongst many African Americans in the sense that it’s ok for us to use it but not you.
I’m all for changing this mind set yet I still feel that I need to be careful about how I go about it.
Know what I mean?

Like if you where to ever come across a trans person in the situation of being offended by that word alone un related to the context in which it was used.
You might just say hey I know it may have some roots to it but it doesn’t have to be that way.
It can just be another word. That is to say that I don’t like the idea of negative words and/or words that are viewed as being for only one class of people ya dig?

I see your point. But there's something about the alliteration of Thai trannie that makes it roll off the tongue so much better than Thai transsexual. Still I will keep this in mind when I'm hurling my typical insults around. Still, as annoying and awkwardly disturbing as a surprise encounter with Thai[DEL] trannie[/DEL] transsexual might be, I find the possibility that you and your transsexual friends might be discussing online conversations we've had almost equally disturbing. Generally, I'm very comfortable with my sexuality, but there's something about a table of transsexuals casually discussing matters at hand. There's something about the idea that my name might have casually been thrown around within the context of the conversation that causes me to run through a whole gambit of knee jerk responses; everything from being slightly flattered all the way to sheer sphincter-clenching terror.