Quilter Bass Block

[Stu_Bass]

I'm with you 100% that the next generation ought to have a "pre/post" switch for the DI.

That said, I understand completely why Quilter designed it the way they did: The BB800's Gain and Master controls interact to shape your tone. Hypothetically, if the XLR Out was after the Gain but before the Master, then you would not be able to get the full range of tones into front-of-house. By putting the XLR Out post-Master, they've assured that what you hear on stage will be what goes to the board (for better or worse).

Pat has said that the line out on the amp was intended to feed another amp when daisy chaining thus any changes made to the master would be passed along to the slave amps. The majority of players have expressed that a true DI out (pre/post, ground lift, mic/line) would have been preferred but it was a design choice made by him and is not wrong but simply the way he saw it.

 

[PhatBasstard]

I'm with you 100% that the next generation ought to have a "pre/post" switch for the DI.

That said, I understand completely why Quilter designed it the way they did: The BB800's Gain and Master controls interact to shape your tone. Hypothetically, if the XLR Out was after the Gain but before the Master, then you would not be able to get the full range of tones into front-of-house. By putting the XLR Out post-Master, they've assured that what you hear on stage will be what goes to the board (for better or worse).

Well......
This is how they all work.
The master "indirectly" affects tone by allowing to set your pregain to any saturation point, by then letting you run that saturation point at any volume (master volume). If your "master volume" is doing anything tonewise other than just setting your overall acoustic volume output, then you have a bad design.

I don't think the Quilter is doing this and some are just looking to read a little too much magic into the formula.
I'm sure their master volume, like overwhelmingly most, is simply a volume control after all the "magic" has taken place.
Placing the DI after it, rather than before it, was probably oversite more than anything ("Well...it looked good on paper..."), inviting more than a few "HEY!? What are you doing?!" from various sound guys towards the bassist that may have to change his stage volume on occasion.

It's not even about volume to the board/house as much as how your input gain is no longer optimal to the board without continual on the fly adjustment during performance. I've played for anywhere from 4 to 40,000 in my career. Trust me, top tier sound techs would not go for this and force you to use a separate DI box (many do anyway).
If that's going to be the case, why even have the built in DI?

Kind of moot anyway.
Quilter recognized the issue and is supposedly fixing it on the next generation, so, I will continue to wait.

 

[PhatBasstard]

1. Pat has said that the line out on the amp was intended to feed another amp when daisy chaining thus any changes made to the master would be passed along to the slave amps. The majority of players have expressed that a true DI out (pre/post, ground lift, mic/line) would have been preferred but it was a design choice made by him and is not wrong but simply the way he saw it.

For this kind of use, it makes absolute sense.
However, many amps also have some kind of line out set up for this purpose.

But knowing this is contrary to everyone else in the industry, I would have made it either swichable (pre/post master volume) or had a second traditional DI out.

 

[Mushroo]

Well......
This is how they all work.
The master "indirectly" affects tone by allowing to set your pregain to any saturation point, by then letting you run that saturation point at any volume (master volume). If your "master volume" is doing anything tonewise other than just setting your overall acoustic volume output, then you have a bad design.

Quilter BB800 must be a "bad design" then, because the Master control on my unit absolutely 100% does have an effect on the tone. Setting the Master to a low setting gives more overdrive, like the power tube saturation of a low wattage tube head. Increasing the Master gives a cleaner tone with more headroom, like a higher wattage tube amp. Using the BB800 isn't as simple as "adjust the preamp to a tone you like, and then use the Master to set the overall volume" like most other amps I have tried.

 

[PhatBasstard]

Quilter BB800 must be a "bad design" then, because the Master control on my unit absolutely 100% does have an effect on the tone. Setting the Master to a low setting gives more overdrive, like the power tube saturation of a low wattage tube head. Increasing the Master gives a cleaner tone with more headroom, like a higher wattage tube amp.

Exactly what I said. Big picture.
You're getting more over drive, etc. at a low master volume setting because you're raising your pregain to a higher setting to achieve the same relative volume.
This is how all pre+post gain amps (at least solid state) work.

 

[Mushroo]

Exactly what I said. Big picture.
You're getting more over drive, etc. at a low master volume setting because you're raising your pregain to a higher setting to achieve the same relative volume.
This is how all pre+post gain amps (at least solid state) work.

You misunderstand. On my BB800, changing the Master (and only the Master, not touching the Gain) has a big effect on the tone. Yours doesn't work that way?

 

[PhatBasstard]

You misunderstand. On my BB800, changing the Master (and only the Master, not touching the Gain) has a big effect on the tone. Yours doesn't work that way?

Fine. If that's "really" the case, then a separate, TRUE master volume, that does nothing but control the VOLUME (acoustic) output, with the DI unaffected, should have been incorporated.
But, if it truly does do what you claim, that wouldn't be conducive to the purpose (amp daisy chaining) that Pat said they designed it that way for.

Regardless, maybe Pat will chime on this phenomenon.

As I said above "continuing to wait".
The current configuration (masted volume/DI) would be near useless to me.
I will wait for the next generation before deciding if this is the amp for me.
I spent a lot of time with one that was in Guitar Center about 6 months ago.
Liked it, but not enough to get me to switch from my LMT800.
The next generation may change my mind.

 

[Rocksolid]

Simplest Amp on the market, and potentially the most over analyzed, critiqued, over processed, from a tone perspective, yet to me, it is the most transparent Amp there is. It's astounding.

Flame suit on.

 

[Frank77]

it is the most transparent Amp there is. It's astounding.

Which is exactly why I like mine so much: Finally a class D amp that's not trying to be something it's not. Just a good, clean-sounding, musically pleasing and powerful amp in a lightweight, convenient package (oh, and affordable, too).

 

[bdplaid]

I don't think the Quilter is doing this and some are just looking to read a little too much magic into the formula.
I'm sure their master volume, like overwhelmingly most, is simply a volume control after all the "magic" has taken place.
Placing the DI after it, rather than before it, was probably oversite more than anything ("Well...it looked good on paper..."), inviting more than a few "HEY!? What are you doing?!" from various sound guys towards the bassist that may have to change his stage volume on occasion.

But then would that not result in an uncontrollable signal to wherever it was going? Te level would only be controlled by the gain, and if you wanted it high for the compression effect, would that signal not be hot as blazes and truly unusable?

Put a freakin mic in front of the cab like the guitars. Sheesh, too many bassists try to do the soundguy's job for him.

 

[Stu_Bass]

Quilter BB800 must be a "bad design" then, because the Master control on my unit absolutely 100% does have an effect on the tone. Setting the Master to a low setting gives more overdrive, like the power tube saturation of a low wattage tube head. Increasing the Master gives a cleaner tone with more headroom, like a higher wattage tube amp. Using the BB800 isn't as simple as "adjust the preamp to a tone you like, and then use the Master to set the overall volume" like most other amps I have tried.

I don't recall but Pat may have actually addressed this somewhere in here. the thread has grown to be massive. This is a good question for Pat or Chris to chime in on or perhaps someone could ask Quilter support. Is the master a pre-power amp volume control or does it actually scale the power amps wattage?

 

[Stu_Bass]

But then would that not result in an uncontrollable signal to wherever it was going? Te level would only be controlled by the gain, and if you wanted it high for the compression effect, would that signal not be hot as blazes and truly unusable?

Put a freakin mic in front of the cab like the guitars. Sheesh, too many bassists try to do the soundguy's job for him.

I'll take that any day. This leads me to the question that has been (passionately) debated on TB many times. Why do many FOH engineers argue so much when asked to take a post signal from a bass amp? I understand the "your stage EQ is not the house EQ part of it but as a bass player the sound of my amp is my sound and you can only recreate it if you have the same amp or a model of the amp available at FOH and that's EXTREMELY unlikely. My sound is NOT my bass into a mic pre, it is the bass going through my amp and that is what I want in the FOH mix.

 

[PhatBasstard]

But then would that not result in an uncontrollable signal to wherever it was going? Te level would only be controlled by the gain, and if you wanted it high for the compression effect, would that signal not be hot as blazes and truly unusable?

That's basically why there are individual input gain controls and/or pads on each channel on pro sound boards.
And also why many forward thinking amp manufactures also include a control of some kind for the DI out that is unaffected by the master volume and does nothing to the amps tone....because it's not supposed to....

 

[Bassometer]

PhatBasstard: "To their credit, Quilter themselves have realized this and have said themselves, in this very thread, that this very issue will be changed in the next generation of this head."

That means we have the "quirky" first gen version and it will probably be worth more down the road. I bet there is a 56 page post in the future arguing how much better the first gen was.

 

[PhatBasstard]

I'll take that any day. This leads me to the question that has been (passionately) debated on TB many times. Why do many FOH engineers argue so much when asked to take a post signal from a bass amp? I understand the "your stage EQ is not the house EQ part of it but as a bass player the sound of my amp is my sound and you can only recreate it if you have the same amp or a model of the amp available at FOH and that's EXTREMELY unlikely. My sound is NOT my bass into a mic pre, it is the bass going through my amp and that is what I want in the FOH mix.

I won't argue which sounds better as that's subjective.
Many don't like post EQ XLR feeds because you may be setting a radical EQ (which you're feeding to the sound engineer)
on your amp to make up for weird deficiencies and/or characteristics in your cab, which may cause issues with the FOH.

I always prefer a line over mic due to simple control and no bleed.
Adding a mic to the signal line just puts another shunt in the chain the can degrade your sound, signal, and can F'up your sound much more than taking a line after your pre/processing is likely to.

Its all about separate control kids.

 

[PhatBasstard]

To their credit, Quilter themselves have realized this and have said themselves, in this very thread, that this very issue will be changed in the next generation of this head.

That means we have the "quirky" first gen version and it will probably be worth more down the road. I bet there is a 56 page post in the future arguing how much better the first gen was.

Oh, you know that will happen.

...and where's my quote credit?! ;-)

 

[Bassometer]

Oops, I'm not good at reply with a quote in a smart phone.
Fixed

 

[kasbrey]

I don't really understand what the problem is with the DI issue. If you want the DI to be "post" then the Quilter system is the same as all my preamps in that the master volume affects the DI out in post mode (Two Notes Le Bass, Basswitch DI, Fishman Platinum, DHA Vt1). If "pre" is required then every sound guy I've ever come across has provided and favoured his own box anyway.

 

[PhatBasstard]

I don't really understand what the problem is with the DI issue. If you want the DI to be "post" then the Quilter system is the same as all my preamps in that the master volume affects the DI out in post mode (Two Notes Le Bass, Basswitch DI, Fishman Platinum, DHA Vt1). If "pre" is required then every sound guy I've ever come across has provided and favoured his own box anyway.

It's not a problem......for most other modern bass heads.
Less hoops to jump through.

I can guarantee you, most pro sound engineers are on my side of this.
The others make you use their own "favoured" box........

 

[kasbrey]

I can guarantee you, most pro sound engineers are on my side of this.
The others make you use their own "favoured" box........

Your guarantee means less from over here where "favoured" is correctly spelt (spelled?).