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Reading music and elitism

#441
What attitude? lol

Seriously, it's not about attitude. It's about a desire to work with people with whom I can communicate. If you can read music, I can put my music in front of you and you can play it. If you can't read, then I have to either record it for you so you can learn it, or I have to write it in tab. For either of those options, I have to play your instrument for you!

That's fine in some rock band settings. But that mode of communication breaks down immediately if it's a pianist or horn player or drummer trying to communicate your part to you. Imagine if Doc Sevrinsen could write/transpose his charts for everyone else in the Tonight Show band, but had to go learn to play the bass in order to write tab so the bassist could play his part..... nope it's not about elitism, it's about becoming a minimally functional musician.

miltslackford said:
Your missing the obvious. People aren't attacking the skill they're attacking the attitude. You can be proud of your ability that's fine. But to be proud of having an elitist attitude isn't the same as being proud of being able to read music.

If you really think that being able to read music puts you in an elite then it's hardly a very difficult entry requirement. I can read, I wouldn't consider myself in an elite because of that, but you know, whatever floats your boat.
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#443
JimmyM said:
Waaaaaahh! Someone said something that could help me! Waaaaaahh!

:D
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:p

coyote1 said:
So then... the thread was fine for you when the attack on the 'elitists' was occurring, but soured for you when the elitists stood up and said "We consider it a badge of honor rather than a smear"??

No one who has spent the time & effort to attain a skill has any reason to apologize for being proud of their ability. No high horse, just simple skill/accomplishment/ability.
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I don't guess I read far enough in to witness any attacks on elitism. I just read far enough to see people complaining about how people view them as elitists for no reason, and how much better reading made them than the rock-n-roll n00bs that should quit being lazy.

coyote1 said:
What attitude? lol

Seriously, it's not about attitude. It's about a desire to work with people with whom I can communicate. If you can read music, I can put my music in front of you and you can play it. If you can't read, then I have to either record it for you so you can learn it, or I have to write it in tab. For either of those options, I have to play your instrument for you!

That's fine in some rock band settings. But that mode of communication breaks down immediately if it's a pianist or horn player or drummer trying to communicate your part to you. Imagine if Doc Sevrinsen could write/transpose his charts for everyone else in the Tonight Show band, but had to go learn to play the bass in order to write tab so the bassist could play his part..... nope it's not about elitism, it's about becoming a minimally functional musician.
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And there is the big difference in viewpoints. Is a "minimally functional musician" a person that can play an appropriate (or even great) line in a song, regardless of any reading skills? Or is a "minimally functional musician" strictly judged on whether or not he can interpret some lines and dots?

I don't think it's hard to spot the elitist attitude there... unless your mirror is too foggy from breathing too heavy while admiring yourself.
 
#444
Hey, if you want to stand up for lack of education as being something to aspire to, be my guest. I never will in any walks of life, and if people don't like it, that's their problem.
 
#446
Cheez!

It always has to descend into entrenchment and defence!

I think we all agree that reading is a skill one of many that make up being a musician. Some people think it is a very important one in their world and experience, others manage along without it:
I think reading is tremendously important, other aspects of bass playing are not - to me - so I haven't set about acquiring those skills - my world my ball, my rules. That viewpoint opens some doors to me and closes others - so be it, that's my choice, I am aware of it and I am happy with it, the important point is that I don't make offensive comments about people who have taken the time to learn and develop those skills....

Let's please remember that Jimmy's original point was that some people who were lacking one of those skills, presumably by choice, also chose to make disparaging, assumptive, generalist and to some people, offensive, comments about people who possessed that skill, under no provocation and in a public forum like BP magazine.

That, IIRC was what Jimmy made his case against, not that it was impossible to be able to play bass or anything else to a standard that pleased you and that other people also think is enjoyable to listen to, without possessing a certain skill, whatever the pros/cons, advice, experience of everyone else is.

Offensive generalisations are just that - and when they are made from a standpoint of unprovoked scorn which was not relevant to the question in hand, then even more so - the manner in which anyone is able to learn to read music is a complete irrelevance to the question which was being posed by BP and which has opened up into this, apparently very polarised debate. Interesting though....and now I will await the flames in my corner with an extinguisher..
 
#447
Curtybob said:
I'm not standing up for a lack of education. I'm just saying that it pains me to see my educated brethren calling our uneducated brethren lazy and stupid.
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They tell me it's respectable to know how to read, I tell them it is, but if you can play well and not know how to read, that's pretty respectable, too. They call me an elitist, I call them lazy and stupid. Anyone who knows me on here knows I'm not afraid to take it to the lowest common denominator ;)

For an encapsulation of this thread, Martin is 100% right, BTW.
 
#448
I think this is where it went south:

JimmyM said:
So stop with this nonsense about reading music being elitist. I'm sick of it, and it's just a lame excuse for not wanting to put in the work. You never see anyone who can read music talking about how much it costs or how elite they are, do you? Nope, only the whiners who resent people for working for it.

That's what it boils down to...not wanting to put in the work. It ain't brain surgery, folks.
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But then, the conversation turned into exactly what it said you never see. I found that funny.

Again, kudos on how you learned to read music, and for using that tool to solidify your musical career.
 
#449
Curtybob said:
But then, the conversation turned into exactly what it said you never see. I found that funny.
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Me too, because it was totally intended to be funny and satirical. It's what you call "turning your tables on your attacker." So rather than keep the offended tone of my first post, somewhere along the way we decided that being "elitist" wasn't cool because it's just oppressing others, but being "elite" is quite cool indeed because we're living proof that anyone can do it if they put a little work into it, and it has nothing to do with oppression. So we're elite, or in my case, "l33t."

And that's where you got off-track with this thread...not being able to tell the difference ;)
 
#451
Curtybob said:
Ok. That's fair enough. It sure seemed that there was some genuine snobbery.
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I think we often find what we're looking for. I never detected any genuine snobbery from the "reading side" of the discussion.

For the record, I learned how to read as a kid, have maintained a "fair" level of ability in treble clef, but can not sight read at speed in bass clef, and I've never done a sightreading gig in 20 years of making my living as a musician. That's probably a function of the genres I play in more than anything else - blues, rock, singer/songwriter, etc.

I wish I could read better than I can, and have a lot of respect towards those who do. So I guess I find what I'm looking for too!
 
#452
To me looking at Tab is like looking at a wiring diagram rather than a schematic. I can build from an amp from it but I can't really understand what's going on in the circuit like I can with the schematic.
 
#453
I'm a little confused here. Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with Tab? I can read music, but I feel that Tab is better as it seems to be less exact,it's more of a general outline or foundation.With the exception of professional cover bands,shouldnt we as Musicians strive not to be robots playing a line verbatim but instead putting our own style and idea's into the music and making it our own?
 
#454
Blues 95 said:
I'm a little confused here. Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with Tab? I can read music, but I feel that Tab is better as it seems to be less exact,it's more of a general outline or foundation.With the exception of professional cover bands,shouldnt we as Musicians strive not to be robots playing a line verbatim but instead putting our own style and idea's into the music and making it our own?
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How can TAB be better than standard notation? Sometimes things need to be exact, like chords created using multiple instruments and dynamics to emphasize one sound over another.
 
#456
Blues 95 said:
I'm a little confused here. Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with Tab? I can read music, but I feel that Tab is better as it seems to be less exact,it's more of a general outline or foundation.With the exception of professional cover bands,shouldnt we as Musicians strive not to be robots playing a line verbatim but instead putting our own style and idea's into the music and making it our own?
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Some people have a problem with tab because they think it's 'the lowest common denominator' - it doesn't contain rhythmic information necessarily and it doesn't educate you about how music works in particular people claim that it teaches you about harmony*. They think that including tab lowers the standards because it allows people to get by reading tabs and never make the transition to standard notation, which they believe is a superior system (for some good reasons, although tab also has it's advantages).

When I'm reading on guitar I use a combination of the notation and the tab. For blues guitar it's actually pretty essential where you voice each phrase as it has a completely different sound. If there's just notation I can read it (slower on guitar - chords are a pain in the arse!) but I tend to move up and down very quickly from the tab to the staff. The notation is pretty essential for the rhythm, but the tab is pretty essential for getting the right position on the fretboard. It makes a colossal difference to phrasing and a good transcriber will get the tab right as well as the notation. Getting rid of tab is stupid in my opinion it's a very useful tool.

* although personally I'm unconvinced that learning notation ALONE can really educate you about harmony. I asked somebody about this and he said you read the notes in combination with the chord symbol above the notation. Well, then that's chord symbols or charts it's not notation. The same tools used in tandem with notation for teaching harmony can be used without notation. Personally I think notation teaches you more about rhythm than harmony.
 
#457
I have no interest in commenting on the postings of ignorant children regarding the removal of TAB from the magazine.
I am more curious as to what would replace it in the magazine. Was that ever mentioned?
(and yes, I can read tab)
 
#459
Blues 95 said:
I'm a little confused here. Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with Tab? I can read music, but I feel that Tab is better as it seems to be less exact,it's more of a general outline or foundation.With the exception of professional cover bands,shouldnt we as Musicians strive not to be robots playing a line verbatim but instead putting our own style and idea's into the music and making it our own?
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cuz, yknow, it's like not exactly like strict or sumpthin, maybe, I dunno, whatever get a life dude, go jam w yer broz, this wrtten crap is LAM

make up your own answer so itz yours
 

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