I wonder if BP is going to publish a rebuttal of some sort? Seems irresponsible not to. OTOH, to those who would sneer at reading as being elitist, I say "Thanks for the gig"!
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Reading music and elitism
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
I think TAB is useful for fingering. It was the way my guitar teacher taught me, and in retrospect I understand why.
Tons of people want to play the guitar. How many want to be musicians? It's easy to lose motivations when you've got a staff staring you down and you don't even know the notes on the fingerboard or what notes don't have sharps or flats.
People who don't read music don't have any inherent right to have TAB printed. But from a business perspective, taking it away just alienates that much more of their base of people who don't want to be musicians. They just want someone to show them where to put their fingers to play some cool tunes.
Those two comments, while out of line, bring up a point of view that the magazine should consider. Especially since print media readership is dwindling anyways. They should really consider their constituents. I don't know much about the demographics of magazines, but I'd be willing to bet that for every magazine, more amateurs and hobbyists read it than professionals.
Tons of people want to play the guitar. How many want to be musicians? It's easy to lose motivations when you've got a staff staring you down and you don't even know the notes on the fingerboard or what notes don't have sharps or flats.
People who don't read music don't have any inherent right to have TAB printed. But from a business perspective, taking it away just alienates that much more of their base of people who don't want to be musicians. They just want someone to show them where to put their fingers to play some cool tunes.
Those two comments, while out of line, bring up a point of view that the magazine should consider. Especially since print media readership is dwindling anyways. They should really consider their constituents. I don't know much about the demographics of magazines, but I'd be willing to bet that for every magazine, more amateurs and hobbyists read it than professionals.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
That was my point exactly regarding the Bass Extremes book/CD set, Teach Me Bass Guitar, and for that matter Bass Player Magazine. It's a market-driven decision to cater to the most customers possible, although as a Music Educator as well as a Professional Musician it concerns me to see so many skipping around what has been to me a very necessary skill for survival.
The Epic Fail here was the short lived Bass Guitar (US) magazine that only printed TABs. For some things like Dragonforce it was worse than useless unless you were a 14 year old with unlimited time to sit and play Stop The Ipod and figure out what the numbers meant as far as where you put your fingers.
I just wish there was as much sheet music available as there is TAB. I can find TAB for almost every song I've ever heard of, but I can't find sheet music for hardly any of the music I've tried to learn.
First, before I get flamed, I agree, reading notation is a great skill. I strongly suggest everyone learn it.
Caveat being if you can. At 29, I have made many attempts to sight read well over the course of my life, even spending two years at a fairly prestigious music college which shall remain nameless.
I simply can't do it. My brain doesn't function that way. I know theory, I know my way around the fretboard. I have no problem improvising in any key. Give me a chart or lead sheet, I'm happy.
But to actually sight read a piece of music? Every note I see I need to count lines from the clef.
I think that there might be others out there like me.
But, I've always wanted to read, it doesn't make you an elitist, obviously that's bunk. But on the same hand, not reading doesn't make you lazy or an idiot or a bad player.
Caveat being if you can. At 29, I have made many attempts to sight read well over the course of my life, even spending two years at a fairly prestigious music college which shall remain nameless.
I simply can't do it. My brain doesn't function that way. I know theory, I know my way around the fretboard. I have no problem improvising in any key. Give me a chart or lead sheet, I'm happy.
But to actually sight read a piece of music? Every note I see I need to count lines from the clef.
I think that there might be others out there like me.
But, I've always wanted to read, it doesn't make you an elitist, obviously that's bunk. But on the same hand, not reading doesn't make you lazy or an idiot or a bad player.
I think reading itself isn't elitist, but what some people perceive as elitist is the adversarial, haughty and condescending tone of some of the people who read and think everyone should change to suit their values.
Removing the tabs from a magazine for everybody to suit the opinions of a select few because their opinions are more worthy and because the masses 'don't know what's good for them', IS elitist.
It's been established again and again that both systems have their place, and that for the needs and desires of many players alternative systems of learning are adequate to a highly functional level, not limited to but including tabs.
The fact that so many experienced players keep coming back to this issue to battle it out in an adversarial way is kind of strange.
Some people need to realise that hardly anybody cares about the fact that they COULD work in a function band if they read music. Being a professional musician in that way is not deemed desirable to many people and they basically don't care about whether somebody can get this gig or that gig. They work their own job in their own career and they do music as a hobby and want to learn to do stuff their idols do because it's a thrill.
I teach people with different jobs like doctors, a nuclear physicist, teachers, businessmen, accountants etc etc. They don't give a crap about playing in a function band, cruise boat, getting WELL PAID gigs etc, they just want to learn music for fun. They are the majority. If you get all judgemental with people like that because "they'll never be a proper musician" they'll just think your a condescending idiot who is full of themselves, wants to see everything their way, and doesn't have a realistic perspective on their own importance or the importance of their trade.
It's like somebody running a cookery course going "you'll never be a professional cook who can make a load of microwave pub meals in less than thirty minutes and get regular paid work as a cook" to somebody who already has a much better job earning proper money and wants to learn to cook a few things for their own enjoyment.
Playing in a function band is the musical equivalent of making microwave meals to a lot of musicians so if you're saying 'you'll never be able to do that if you don't read' then most people's reaction would be 1. Who cares. and 2. If that's the main reason to read then I definitely think it's a bad idea.
Lots of people get defensive about reading because it's the only thing they can cling on as making them special and righteous in an otherwise totally bland music career where other people who work less get more adulation and they're jealous, resentful and angry about it. Basically, classic bass players, which is probably why guitarists don't argue about reading music and whether people should do it.
These threads in the 'general instruction' section have nothing to do with instruction and everything to do with experienced musicians who should know better getting into petty squabbles about an issue that they just won't let go of.
Removing the tabs from a magazine for everybody to suit the opinions of a select few because their opinions are more worthy and because the masses 'don't know what's good for them', IS elitist.
It's been established again and again that both systems have their place, and that for the needs and desires of many players alternative systems of learning are adequate to a highly functional level, not limited to but including tabs.
The fact that so many experienced players keep coming back to this issue to battle it out in an adversarial way is kind of strange.
Some people need to realise that hardly anybody cares about the fact that they COULD work in a function band if they read music. Being a professional musician in that way is not deemed desirable to many people and they basically don't care about whether somebody can get this gig or that gig. They work their own job in their own career and they do music as a hobby and want to learn to do stuff their idols do because it's a thrill.
I teach people with different jobs like doctors, a nuclear physicist, teachers, businessmen, accountants etc etc. They don't give a crap about playing in a function band, cruise boat, getting WELL PAID gigs etc, they just want to learn music for fun. They are the majority. If you get all judgemental with people like that because "they'll never be a proper musician" they'll just think your a condescending idiot who is full of themselves, wants to see everything their way, and doesn't have a realistic perspective on their own importance or the importance of their trade.
It's like somebody running a cookery course going "you'll never be a professional cook who can make a load of microwave pub meals in less than thirty minutes and get regular paid work as a cook" to somebody who already has a much better job earning proper money and wants to learn to cook a few things for their own enjoyment.
Playing in a function band is the musical equivalent of making microwave meals to a lot of musicians so if you're saying 'you'll never be able to do that if you don't read' then most people's reaction would be 1. Who cares. and 2. If that's the main reason to read then I definitely think it's a bad idea.
Lots of people get defensive about reading because it's the only thing they can cling on as making them special and righteous in an otherwise totally bland music career where other people who work less get more adulation and they're jealous, resentful and angry about it. Basically, classic bass players, which is probably why guitarists don't argue about reading music and whether people should do it.
These threads in the 'general instruction' section have nothing to do with instruction and everything to do with experienced musicians who should know better getting into petty squabbles about an issue that they just won't let go of.
The best place to look is Invalid Link Removed
If you have guitar pro you can download the material and print it off as either tab or notation. It's easy enough to do you just de-select the tab on the view list.
Generally the transcriptions there are pretty accurate, unlike ultimate guitar etc. You can play them in guitar pro also, to see if they're accurate.
I'm against elitism, whether it's from people who say reading music (i.e., western musical notation) is stupid and useless, or from people who say tablature is garbage or that western musical notation is the be-all/end-all of musical notation. You should try and learn what's best for what you want to do. Both are legitimate and useful forms of notation. And they aren't even the only forms; there are lots of different types of musical notation from many cultures throughout history.
Personally, probably 95% of the music I play was composed *not* via somebody jotting down western musical notation on paper. But if, for example, I had ambition to become a serious jazz player or classical player, then I would do my best to learn to read standard western musical notation.
Personally, probably 95% of the music I play was composed *not* via somebody jotting down western musical notation on paper. But if, for example, I had ambition to become a serious jazz player or classical player, then I would do my best to learn to read standard western musical notation.
"Elitism" is just a word that adults invented to convey that emotion they felt as babies which sounded like "WHHAAAAAAAaaaaaaAAHAAAAAaaaaHAaaaaaaaaaaaaa!"
It is most often heard in political circles when one party fails to win because they stupidly chose a candidate that was not as qualified as the opposition.
It is most often heard in political circles when one party fails to win because they stupidly chose a candidate that was not as qualified as the opposition.
Elitism is where different ways are arranged hierarchically and one way is deemed 'best for all'.
Non-elitism is where different ways are arranged horizontally and different ways are good for different people based on their needs, preferences, tastes, values etc. Many different ways being best for different types of people.
Not sure why they would want to remove the TAB fom it. Doesn't make alot of sense. However, everyone should learn to read music. It's really not hard. I started out on Trumpet in Middle school, my freshman year in H.S. I started playing bass. It was a fairly simple matter to go from treble clef to bass clef. My only instructor was a Mel Bay beginers book on bass. No problem and nothing elitist about it. I haven't had to read music in along time now, so I'm a bit out of practice but I still do on occasion.
I just don't understand the elitist comment. It does seem that it is made by someone who really doesn't want to put the minimal effort into learning it. It's just not that hard.
I just don't understand the elitist comment. It does seem that it is made by someone who really doesn't want to put the minimal effort into learning it. It's just not that hard.
- Oct 7, 2000
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If you read music you have a tool that gives you 1 up someone who doesn't read. Maybe 2 or 3 up.
Tab can be helpful to people who can't read. If someone becomes dependent on it, tab can be detrimental.
Standard notation is far more useful than tab.
You don't need to know how to read music in order to write or play great music.
There are no down sides to being able to read music. It's a tool. There are no down sides to owning a nice set of screwdrivers.
There are some people who would be upset if they stopped putting tab in bass player magazine.
People who think the magazine would be better without it IMO do have some sort of ego problem going on.
I think "elitist" is a suitable word for those people.
Tab can be helpful to people who can't read. If someone becomes dependent on it, tab can be detrimental.
Standard notation is far more useful than tab.
You don't need to know how to read music in order to write or play great music.
There are no down sides to being able to read music. It's a tool. There are no down sides to owning a nice set of screwdrivers.
There are some people who would be upset if they stopped putting tab in bass player magazine.
People who think the magazine would be better without it IMO do have some sort of ego problem going on.
I think "elitist" is a suitable word for those people.
Rant on, brother Jimmy!
"Elitist???" What? Since when? Musicians are such a small percentage of the population that, IME, most musicians can read standard notation to some extent. This is not elitist, this is basic. Is it "elitist" to learn to read your native tongue? No, it's expected. Learning to read music takes only a few minutes per day, and one can easily be fluent in bass and treble clefs (no need anymore for tenor clef - but it isn't hard to add once you know how it's constructed) within a month or so. TAB is ridiculous and pointless pandering to the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately, with the youth (under 30, for the purposes of this discussion) of today, and their *&$#^$ sense of "entitlement," I don't see it getting better. Where do these people get off expecting to be great at something without any effort? They expect me (taxpayer) to support them when they aren't willing to support themselves? How do they justify their expectations to have everything given to them. I hate to break the news to them, but the world does not owe them a living!
Tabs are far better than nothing. To learn songs in the "old days," if one couldn't read music, one had to do it all by ear unless you were lucky enough to watch the hands of a player who already knew the songs.
As a reader, my only beef with tabs -- at least in commercial books and sheet music -- is that they take up too much room, forcing too many page turns.
Often, I've resorted to buying the combined notation/tab music, then copying just the notation into notation software, so as to reduce 4 or 5 pages into 2.
As a reader, my only beef with tabs -- at least in commercial books and sheet music -- is that they take up too much room, forcing too many page turns.
Often, I've resorted to buying the combined notation/tab music, then copying just the notation into notation software, so as to reduce 4 or 5 pages into 2.
I don't read music. I've tried learning it from books, but I never got the hang of it. I learned everything I know the hard way from self-teaching because I didn't have access to music education in school. Consequently, my level of "musicianship" is somewhat below average. Thankfully, I was born with an above average gift for creativity that other musicians seem to appreciate that makes them enjoy or at least tolerate playing with me.
Of course, having a good attitude and not referring to others as "elitists" just because I'm envious of the skills they have helps too. The word "awesome" works much better for expressing that.
Of course, having a good attitude and not referring to others as "elitists" just because I'm envious of the skills they have helps too. The word "awesome" works much better for expressing that.
Rickett Customs
Commercial User
Okay, eliminate some of the adjectives. Chalk it up to just having had a discussion with one who has that sense of entitlement (he fully expects the school systems to change their concert start times to 3 pm so that he can get enough sleep). We'll just change it to "pandering to the lowest common denominator." That is absolutely true. Everyone with functional eyesight can figure out TAB with only a few moments consideration. Any activity or method that allows everyone equal footing is, by definition, aimed toward the lowest common denominator.
However, if you were trying to call me elitist, I won't argue. I'm also an opinionated and pompous windbag, but that doesn't make me wrong, at least not in this case.
What a great attitude. This is what a non-reader's attitude should be.
Wow, I can't read and I didn't get an elitist vibe from any of the posts. Nor did I get the message that people thought they were cooler because they can read.Many of the replies in this thread are pretty elitist. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing. It's kind of amusing to read posts claiming they aren't elitist but are somehow much cooler because they can read. For the record I can read. Read or don't, but looking down on people who don't or don't want to learn is elitist. That's pretty much the definition of elitism. Use your reading ability to read the dictionary lol
My take on the majority of the posts is the same thing: reading is a great tool to add to your toolbox. It's not as difficult as non readers make it seem.
That's a pretty positive message to me.
If anything readers may look down on the non readers who dismiss reading as not important, or a negative in someway. But so do I. Just because I don't read doesn't mean I don't realize the value.
