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Reading music and elitism

#142
What dissapoints me here is not that so many of us are stressing the importance of reading standard noatation (of whom I am one), but that so many of us who are stressing the importance of SN are also DIScrediting TAB as useless.

TAB is shorthand. Nothing more, nothing less. It's less comprehensive than SN, it's no substitute for SN, but it's easy and quick. It's just another 'alphabet' with which one can document musical ideas.

I can easily see how a musician can point out that TAB provides less data than SN and that it's beneficial to learn SN, but there are certain realities that can't be ignored:

The less intimidating nature of TAB has probably served to get more people's hands on instruments in the first place. Literate or not, more people playing music is a good thing and TAB has, IMO, played a role in that.

Assuming TABs are accurate (not always a safe assumption, but SN is not always accurate, either), someone who wants to learn a tune - beginner or not - can see the fingering. That may or may not be the best fingering, but it gives them a starting point.
We could argue back and forth about whether or not someone learning a new tune should figure out the fingering for themselves, but the TAB is only there to convey the information. It's not taking any moral high-ground.

TABs sell magazines, it's true, but has anyone stopped to consider why? It's because it requires less work on the part of the reader. Do I feel the musician should suck it up and do the work? Yes I do, but if doing the extra work means somebody is going to lose interest and stop playing music, well, that's just bad for everybody.

Think about it; TAB is not plotting to destroy the world by making musicians lazy or pandering to bad habits. It's simply another way to write music down.

Now that I've written that, I think when I get home tonight I'm going to dust off my old Chuck Rainey books and try to brush up on my sight reading.
 
#143
tekdiver500ft said:
Okay, eliminate some of the adjectives. We'll just change it to "pandering to the lowest common denominator." That is absolutely true. Everyone with functional eyesight can figure out TAB with only a few moments consideration. Any activity or method that allows everyone equal footing is, by definition, aimed toward the lowest common denominator.

However, if you were trying to call me elitist, I won't argue. I'm also an opinionated and pompous windbag, but that doesn't make me wrong, at least not in this case.

.
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Yes from this comment (in which you admit to being elitist), you do clearly point out that your elitist, so I don't have to do this for you.

It seems pretty stupid to me though, to enter a discussion specifically to say your point of view isn't elitist, only to moments later go 'what I mean to say is, yes it is elitist but because I'm right I don't care, so there'.

With regard your 'pandering to the lowest common denominator' and then saying 'this is absolutely true'. Well I'm not sure about idea of 'absolute truth'. It seems to me the same thing could be said in a number of ways, such as

'Giving people the choice over how they learn'
or
'Reducing the barriers to entry to be more inclusive'.

It seems like you could find equally true ways of explaining the same thing but the tone of your comments does a lot to show your own 'emotional truth' which is a disdain for mediocrity, and your own sense of entitlement to express it.

Many people approaching an instrument have a lack of confidence. They may believe they don't have the necessary skills or talents or education. You can either be elitist and competitive with these people or create an environment where they feel safe to do things at their own pace and get encouragement. This is a general instruction forum where beginners come to learn and I don't believe having unashamedly elitist and pompous people putting down 'the lowest common denominator' really does much to help anybody learn anything.
 
#144
I didn't learn to read music until I was around 30 when I started on upright bass. IMO it's a neccassity for that instrument. Learning to read opens up a whole new world for you as a musician.

I did use tab up until the point that I started upright bass. The one thing I will say about tab now that I've gone to the other side is, it's a very non-musical way of communicating information. I really can't stand it anymore.

However I understand the average rock player just wanting to learn licks out of a magazine or the web. I'm far from elitist, but I strived to move past that mentallity a long time ago.
 
#146
This is a long thread, so I don't know if this point has been mentioned before:

One strength of having standard notation and TAB together is the fact that fingerings are much easier to notate in TAB. For example, Ed Friedland's excellent R&B Bass Masters book has both. I try to use the standard notation to work on my reading, but Ed has put lots of thought and study into which strings the original players used, and this can make a big difference in certain passages. TAB is a very economical way to communicate fingerings on BG. That's one good argument for providing both.

I posted the Marcus Miller quote about learning to read above; it seems to me that Jaco said something similar in his video lesson.

--Steve
 
#147
Joe Nerve said:
If you read music you have a tool that gives you 1 up someone who doesn't read. Maybe 2 or 3 up.

Tab can be helpful to people who can't read. If someone becomes dependent on it, tab can be detrimental.

Standard notation is far more useful than tab.

There are no down sides to being able to read music. It's a tool. There are no down sides to owning a nice set of screwdrivers.
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Agreed.

Joe Nerve said:
You don't need to know how to read music in order to write or play great music.
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I don't think anyone suggested otherwise.


Joe Nerve said:
There are some people who would be upset if they stopped putting tab in bass player magazine.

People who think the magazine would be better without it IMO do have some sort of ego problem going on.

I think "elitist" is a suitable word for those people.
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Again, I don't think anyone suggested the magazine would be better without it. At least that wasn't the point of the OP.

I don't know the reason for the poll, but I suspect that the thought behind removing tab would be to "encourage" people to learn to read SN. Current isn't the only thing that takes the path of least resistance. :)
 
#150
As I said in an earlier post, there's nothing wrong with being a hobbyist or enthusiast about bass, gardening, cars, golf, yoga, whatever. The professionals would not have been enough to have stimulated the Bass Community that has given everyone the many different instruments, publications and websites (including this one). If TAB gets you going that way I see no harm.
In my day to day work I'm counseling and preparing bassists who hope to make a living doing this. In addition, I teach a fair amount of students who just want to play for fun, blow off steam, play with their friends in bands, etc. One size does not fit all. You have to tailor what you are teaching to the student and their needs. If I didn't deal with reading with someone who wanted to be a professional I would be short-changing them. If I beat a casual hobbyist student over the head with reading, likewise. For those students I'm glad that Bass Player has TAB and notation and I'm likewise glad that a lot of beginning methods do.
I don't know that I (or anyone else here) is holding themselves as superior because of music reading skills. It's a skill, it can be developed. It's not a bit of Magic Mojo that only the select few can get. The life of a working musician means all sorts of gigs-in my case that means I've played concerts in the Kremlin and gigs in the coffeehouse up the street. The Bass Stars have all done this work en route to where they are, unless they've taken the even more arduous task of piling in a van with four or five other musicians and playing anywhere for nothing in order to develop a fan base for their music and playing the Rock Star Lottery. It's no different than my contractor. I hire him because he has learned everything he can about building and construction and knows far more than I ever will, even though I have nice collections of power tools and can whack around with weekend projects. He has immersed himself in this stuff just as I and many of my students have immersed themselves in music and bass. When I counsel a player who wants to do this for Real, that level of expertise is always what I'm attempting to let them know they'll need.
 
#151
miltslackford said:
I think reading itself isn't elitist, but what some people perceive as elitist is the adversarial, haughty and condescending tone of some of the people who read and think everyone should change to suit their values.

Removing the tabs from a magazine for everybody to suit the opinions of a select few because their opinions are more worthy and because the masses 'don't know what's good for them', IS elitist.

It's been established again and again that both systems have their place, and that for the needs and desires of many players alternative systems of learning are adequate to a highly functional level, not limited to but including tabs.

The fact that so many experienced players keep coming back to this issue to battle it out in an adversarial way is kind of strange.

Some people need to realise that hardly anybody cares about the fact that they COULD work in a function band if they read music. Being a professional musician in that way is not deemed desirable to many people and they basically don't care about whether somebody can get this gig or that gig. They work their own job in their own career and they do music as a hobby and want to learn to do stuff their idols do because it's a thrill.

I teach people with different jobs like doctors, a nuclear physicist, teachers, businessmen, accountants etc etc. They don't give a crap about playing in a function band, cruise boat, getting WELL PAID gigs etc, they just want to learn music for fun. They are the majority. If you get all judgemental with people like that because "they'll never be a proper musician" they'll just think your a condescending idiot who is full of themselves, wants to see everything their way, and doesn't have a realistic perspective on their own importance or the importance of their trade.

It's like somebody running a cookery course going "you'll never be a professional cook who can make a load of microwave pub meals in less than thirty minutes and get regular paid work as a cook" to somebody who already has a much better job earning proper money and wants to learn to cook a few things for their own enjoyment.

Playing in a function band is the musical equivalent of making microwave meals to a lot of musicians so if you're saying 'you'll never be able to do that if you don't read' then most people's reaction would be 1. Who cares. and 2. If that's the main reason to read then I definitely think it's a bad idea.

Lots of people get defensive about reading because it's the only thing they can cling on as making them special and righteous in an otherwise totally bland music career where other people who work less get more adulation and they're jealous, resentful and angry about it. Basically, classic bass players, which is probably why guitarists don't argue about reading music and whether people should do it.

These threads in the 'general instruction' section have nothing to do with instruction and everything to do with experienced musicians who should know better getting into petty squabbles about an issue that they just won't let go of.
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Professionnal keep coming at it because it only make empty shell player and ultimatly leave us with empty music made by people who don't know better.

If you learn to play piano for fun ... guess what ... you'll learn to read music !
 
#152
JimmyM said:
I saw a comment in the new BP today that just angered the living crap out of me. They asked a poll question: "Should we do away with TAB in our transcriptions?" To which one halfwit replied:

"Losing the TAB would make the magazine way too elitist."

Another joker replied:

"Not all of us had mommies and daddies who could pay for music classes."

Really? You really think it's about money and elitism? Yeah, you're right...I learned out of a book that cost $5 in addition to joining the middle school band. My wife, who had no previous musical skills, wanted to learn the piano a few years ago. I bought her a piano for Christmas and a $15 piano method book. She worked through the book herself and taught herself how to read. Real big money there, eh?

So stop with this nonsense about reading music being elitist. I'm sick of it, and it's just a lame excuse for not wanting to put in the work. You never see anyone who can read music talking about how much it costs or how elite they are, do you? Nope, only the whiners who resent people for working for it.

That's what it boils down to...not wanting to put in the work. It ain't brain surgery, folks.
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Agreed. Simply wanting to play "follow the leader" and avoid using your ears, just following every little pattern your fingers can tweedle out rather than listening to what sounds right creates the "lack" of musicality, as well as motivation, or effort!

Now I understand there may be issues reading (hell, your reading the post of a guy who plays what is technically a "bass" instrument in the saxophone family, whose music is always natively treble clef), the look of bass notes and adjustment of my eyes to the difference of two lines on note naming peeves me, however at least I know what I'm talking about.

How are you going to spell chords? "Uh well there's the A15 fret to the D13 to the G---" SHUT UP! I've already had enough of the non-sensical spelling of note names you can't even be bothered to discover!

Whatever happened to being a musician? Not just a line-reader who carries a guitar and an amp around?
 
#153
I learned to read in public school as a kid, but my reading chops eroded after years of "being taught the song" by someone in the band or picking it up off of the record by ear (both good skills to have).

As a working jazz player, I can get by without being a good reader most of the time, but I feel like an actual illiterate with a dark secret. Now and again, someone will put some simple 8 bar phrase in front of me and I'll soil my pants. There are some projects that come to me that I'd really like take, but have to turn down because they require more reading than I'm comfortable with.

I've been working reading into my practice for the last few years and it's coming along. Haven't spend a single dollar on it and don't know why it would help me too. It's a very good skill to have and I'll get it back, because I'm limited as a musician without it. At least, I can't accomplish my goals without it and I'm going to miss out on some tasty stuff if I don't get my reading together.

That said, people before me are right, all it takes is putting the work in.
 
#157
Clef_de_fa said:
Professionnal keep coming at it because it only make empty shell player and ultimatly leave us with empty music made by people who don't know better.

If you learn to play piano for fun ... guess what ... you'll learn to read music !
Click to expand...

Not necessarily the case...I have been told that, for example, of Jools Hollands Big Band, only the brass section and bass player, Dave Swift can read music....that leaves drummer, guitarist, organist and Mr Holland himself who don't read...I think he plays piano for more than just fun :-)

(And I say that as someone who thinks that reading is not elitist in any way, but would certainly enhance the experience of music for anyone who took the trouble to learn to do so..)
 
#158
If I'm honest, I would readily admit that the only thing that's kept me from learning standard notation is my own laziness. Maybe it's because I started out as a drummer. Even in stage band (jazz) I only used the notation to track bars and measures.

My current gigs in an original singer/songwriter band and playing in church worship don't require me to know SN so I don't bother. I just use chord sheets. I know a lot of scales, modes, and chord notes, so chords alone are fine for what I do now. However, that could change. I could see that if I get back into a jazz ensemble again, I'd like to take the time to learn to read.

However, I certainly see the value of knowing how to read in order to learn new songs, new styles. If you can't hear it and learn it by ear how else would you do it.

For me TAB is useless. It's visually as busy, even more busy than SN. If you're going to take the time to read TAB, why not read music?
 
#159
fwiw
taking a song by tab, you learn that one arrangement of that song
nothing wrong with learning a song. I think most everybody starts out playing one song, then another then enough to fill a set etc.

If I was to place priority, I woiuld say learning theory (which is also sometimes seen as elitist) is more useful than leanringto read notes (but leanring theory is easier if you can read notes) because then it's not just learning a song; it's learning how music works and how those 30 individual songs you might have learned are similar or different from one another and can be transposed to different keys and such.

There are great players who don't read. A lot of gospel piano sites are set up for left hand notes /right hand notes in order (and believe me I found that useful picking up how that worked and sounded).

As someone who labored unfer th eillusion that music just happened for far too long, I'm definitely in the camp now that advocates study and theory and reading
 
#160
Does it make you a better player?
Sure.
Having a good ear is still the greatest tool you can have though for 99% of situations. I've never been on a gig (that wasn't mine) where there was a music stand or a sheet of music. In fact, I don't think I ever seen anyone actually write music or hand out music sheets.
It's all about what you want to get out of your expierence.
 

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