Reiner Amplification Megathread

[JGR]

JGR,

I hope all is well with you today. Just making my weekly check-in to see if you have any updates regarding production for those of us waiting on our own Studio 1200 amps? Any update on when the next one might be ready to ship?

I think the next one is mine - so I'm particularly interested!!

Thanks, JGR, in advance.

Hi Eric,

You are next indeed! I need to install the power module and build the DI and then install the preamp (board is built).

 

[JGR]

I tried a longer post without success (phone typing over a slow connection - sometimes stuff gets messed up if I try something fancy like moving the cursor), so I'll try to keep this short: the DI on the Reiner Amplification Facebook page - I'd like to hear more about that. It's described as being a beefed up Box O' Tone with three preset EQ boosts, engageable singly or in combination. I liked the BOT when I played through it and the Sonic Farm DI at Mike Arnopol's place back in July. I thought both made good, lively front ends, but wasn't sure about the idea of using a box with little or no EQ. The fixed boosts on a DI are an interesting approach, and I'd be curious to see how they work.

Questions:
- Are the boosts voiced specifically for bass or more generally?
- How about the DI as a whole - voiced, EQ-wise, or fairly flat?
- I haven't played the Studio 1200, but it's been described as cleaner and more HiFi than the BOT. Where does this fall along that spectrum? Same tonal family, or are there differences worth noting?

Danke in advance.

Hi Mark,

The boosts, and the DI as a whole, are designed first and foremost for bass guitar, though it will certainly work for a variety of applications. The low and high boosts are shelving, and the mid is peaking at 720 Hz. The low and mid boosts use inductors derived from the Studio 1200's EQ. Boost range seems on the order of around 6 dB, but that is an estimate based on the level indicators on my board when I engage the circuits while sending sine waves at various frequencies into the unit. The low end response of the unit as a whole is tailored for bass guitar, so it stays tight and punchy and keeps the sub stuff in check. It has a flat response (rather than a baked in mid dip or something like that).

It is beefed up compared to the BoT prototype you played. I went with a compete polypropylene power supply (suckers are huge, located under the board) which adds a lot of fidelity and quickness to the tone and response - there are no electrolytics anywhere, and it does make a noticeable difference. This necessitated a new case which also allowed for layout changes that further reduced noise. I reconfigured the first gain stage so it's cleaner and crisper, with a bit less compression than the proto BoT you played. It is similar to the Studio 1200 - they are in the same family though they have subtle differences due to the tube compliments. New additions to the proto you played: front panel mute and thru jack, aforementioned EQ, pwr supply, and gain stage changes, 6dB output pad, and removeable powerCON cord.

Here's what the new proto looks like:

 

[MarkA]

Thanks for the reply. It has a 6 dB *output* pad, not input pad. I had to read that a few times. I'm used to any pad being on the front end. I never use those if I can help it, because they tend to suck tone (well, on my amps they do). An output pad might be different. Would it come after the signal is buffered? Can I ask your reasoning in going with this setup rather than a Gain and Master volume?

DI on top of the rack case looks a bit like a robot from an old 50s sci-fi movie. They (space robots) used tubes back then, too, didn't they?

 

[Fuzzbass]

Last night I used the 1200 with my Berg HS210s. This was with the hard rock band (same as last Saturday), but this time I got FOH support from the excellent soundman we occasionally use (he keeps busy with a bunch of bands). I set up the stack a couple of inches from a pillar, hoping for boundary effect (or whatever you call it). It seemed to work because the bass rig was a lot louder than I expected it to be, given the settings for Gain and Master.

I decided to use the Darkglass B7K all night. I love that pedal, but perhaps I'm still stompbox stupid, because I haven't been able to set it up so that the bypassed tone is as loud as the effected tone. Instead of adjusting amp volume to compensate (as I did last week), I decided to set it and forget it. I was using some fairly intense grind, but the box has a nice Blend control that kept my overall tone from sounding too fuzzy.

In short, I was (again) totally thrilled with my tone! As with the previous two gigs, I kept EQ close to flat and made small tweaks.

As noted, I was louder than expected. One reason was that the guitarist's volume was not ridiculous.... the soundman kept him in check. Another might be the gain from the pedal. Anyway, after the first set I asked the soundman if I was too loud, and he said no, I was perfect. After the 2nd set he told me that my sound in the mix that night had pretty much been my stage rig, not FOH. I consider that a high compliment to the rig! By the third set, I'm sure the guitarist turned up (as he always does), and I could tell that the soundman brought me into FOH to compensate.

OK, it's never my intent to post a review after every single gig; I'll chill after this. Excuse for today is that I used the 1200 with my third (and final) set of gig cabs. After this trio of gigs, my only concern is that the Xbox case wasn't built for the amp -- it's holding up OK, but I hope the GigSkinz bag comes in soon! As for the 1200: it was everything I was hoping for and then some.



Bass amp strategically placed next to wall

Friend of mine sitting in using my gear. Wish I had his hair

Vanity shot

 

[Fuzzbass]

DI on top of the rack case looks a bit like a robot from an old 50s sci-fi movie. They (space robots) used tubes back then, too, didn't they?

Retro sci-fi, definitely!

 

[Fuzzbass]

Someone posted cell phone video from Saturday night to Facebook, I hope it works here. Gotta remember to shoot better video (with better audio, I mean) at some point!

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hvide...=12c23ad7154a3cbd8e90fdd56e4b58da&oe=5506F5CE

FWIW, this band has had drummer-by-committee: four different ones since October. My favorite is the drummer in this video, I pulled him in on short notice from one of the bands I sub with, but he's busy with other projects so I don't think we can steal him.

 

[kd5uwl]

Fuzzbass, no need to stop posting your updates regarding the amp after your gigs as far as I'm concerned .. I definitely enjoy reading them. It's a great way to hear about the amp in situ.

And the video was great. I can definitely hear you in there! Great sound!!

 

[JGR]

Thanks for the reply. It has a 6 dB *output* pad, not input pad. I had to read that a few times. I'm used to any pad being on the front end. I never use those if I can help it, because they tend to suck tone (well, on my amps they do). An output pad might be different. Would it come after the signal is buffered? Can I ask your reasoning in going with this setup rather than a Gain and Master volume?

DI on top of the rack case looks a bit like a robot from an old 50s sci-fi movie. They (space robots) used tubes back then, too, didn't they?

Good questions Mark. I've never liked input pads, or active inputs either, regardless of instrument. In my designs, you can slam the front end as hard as you want and it still sounds great - oh the beauty of tubes and high voltage. The output pad is at the end of the signal chain - if implemented properly (taking into account source and load impedance), you simply get a drop in level, but everything sonically remains intact.

Gain and master volume are another animal entirely - it depends a lot on the circuit in question, but having a gain and master control would generally allow you to dial in some degree of overdrive/grit, which makes no sense for a DI application unless you do some kind of frequency compensation (or like the sound of overdrive through full range systems). It would work with a very clean front end, like the Studio 1200's which generally gets fatter as you crank the gain, with no real overdrive, but I want this unit to be clean and consistent regardless of volume setting, and keep the signal path as pure as possible.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

It's easy to overdrive the input to force tube saturation / grit. I do it with an Empress ParaEQ pedal, which has variable 0-30dB of gain. Nice to keep the back end clean and let you sculpt it at will.

 

[MarkA]

Good questions Mark. I've never liked input pads, or active inputs either, regardless of instrument. In my designs, you can slam the front end as hard as you want and it still sounds great - oh the beauty of tubes and high voltage. The output pad is at the end of the signal chain - if implemented properly (taking into account source and load impedance), you simply get a drop in level, but everything sonically remains intact.

Gain and master volume are another animal entirely - it depends a lot on the circuit in question, but having a gain and master control would generally allow you to dial in some degree of overdrive/grit, which makes no sense for a DI application unless you do some kind of frequency compensation (or like the sound of overdrive through full range systems). It would work with a very clean front end, like the Studio 1200's which generally gets fatter as you crank the gain, with no real overdrive, but I want this unit to be clean and consistent regardless of volume setting, and keep the signal path as pure as possible.

Thanks for the reply, Jonathan. I'm thinking of this DI in the context of combination preamp (feeding a poweramp, perhaps with an external EQ in pedal or rack form, perhaps without, if I can get away with it) and DI signal to FOH. I don't tend to dial in a lot of grit or anything that most people would describe as overdrive, but I do use the gain controls on amps to dial in the tone and feel -- get that combination of rich harmonics and a hint of "bounce" that I like. Re. the latter, I hate anything that feels squishy or compressed, and a lot of tube gear feels too "soft" to me. But, just a bit of that reactive something -- not enough that slapping starts to feel compressed -- is nice, and makes the electric feel like a responsive acoustic instrument. I also think of it as akin to running on a natural surface -- or even a rubberized track -- vs. on concrete.

So, three questions to follow up:

• Can this DI, used as a front end, achieve any of that bounce? Maybe that's not a desirable thing in a DI. The main thing I want out of tube gear is a combination of clarity, "3D-ness" (have to put that a better way) and harmonic richness. Any "bouncyness" is secondary and a tricky balance to hit right.
• By "frequency compensation" do you mean EQ, or something else?
• I'm aware, now, of the importance of matching the sensitivity of a poweramp with the potential output voltage of a preamp. And I know that piezo upright bass pickups, for instance, want to see a higher impedance than magnetic electric bass pickups. But impedance issues between poweramps and preamps isn't something I've ever thought about. Is that something I need to take into account (not just with this DI, but in general)? That would seem to make life just a bit more complicated.

Now that I'm thinking about it, what's the input impedance on the DI? I'm wondering if it would be friendly with piezos (upright bass and cello pickups) as well as magnetic pickups. Most people using the former have something like an fDeck or Fishman or other preamp that takes care of the impedance issue, but it would be nice to know if one could plug in directly.

 

[MarkA]

It's easy to overdrive the input to force tube saturation / grit. I do it with an Empress ParaEQ pedal, which has variable 0-30dB of gain. Nice to keep the back end clean and let you sculpt it at will.

I've thought about getting one of those pedals -- I know it's highly regarded on here. Since I've been messing with pre+power setups, I picked up an old Rane PE-15 parametric instead. Nice piece (you can punch each band in and out individually, along with the whole EQ, and there is a good amount of gain available even with the EQ flat), but I'm finding that every little thing you stick in the signal chain affects the sound somehow, whether active or not. Still might not be a bad option.

 

[monkeyfinger]

I have the JGR single space rack pre. Based on my experience with that pre and my discussions with JGR, I would say he definitely puts a lot of thought into having a ton of headroom in his preamps. That translates, IMO, into great dynamics and punch. I don't experience any of the softness that you describe. (I certainly have felt it with other preamps/amps so I know what you are talking about.) I think this also has a lot to do with paying attention to group delay and phase cohesion which also robs tone and dynamics. I don't experience any of these issues with this pre-amp.

As far as EQ's go: I have both the Empress and the Rane. Both are very good, but I prefer the Empress. The Rane is easier to use because of the larger knobs and labeling. So if on the fly changes are your thing, this may be the answer. If set and forget, I think the Empress would work well. I also recommend you check out the Ashly and Klark-Technic EQs. They are better than the Rane stuff IMO.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I've thought about getting one of those pedals -- I know it's highly regarded on here. Since I've been messing with pre+power setups, I picked up an old Rane PE-15 parametric instead. Nice piece (you can punch each band in and out individually, along with the whole EQ, and there is a good amount of gain available even with the EQ flat), but I'm finding that every little thing you stick in the signal chain affects the sound somehow, whether active or not. Still might not be a bad option.

You're right about unintended consequences. I use the pedal for live play. But when I seriously record, I take everything out of the chain except the DI - except when I need a specific effect coloring the front end. In a live setting - especially if it's loud - no one will hear the difference except experts on Talk Bass!

 

[MarkA]

I have the JGR single space rack pre. Based on my experience with that pre and my discussions with JGR, I would say he definitely puts a lot of thought into having a ton of headroom in his preamps. That translates, IMO, into great dynamics and punch. I don't experience any of the softness that you describe. (I certainly have felt it with other preamps/amps so I know what you are talking about.) I think this also has a lot to do with paying attention to group delay and phase cohesion which also robs tone and dynamics. I don't experience any of these issues with this pre-amp.

As far as EQ's go: I have both the Empress and the Rane. Both are very good, but I prefer the Empress. The Rane is easier to use because of the larger knobs and labeling. So if on the fly changes are your thing, this may be the answer. If set and forget, I think the Empress would work well. I also recommend you check out the Ashly and Klark-Technic EQs. They are better than the Rane stuff IMO.

Danke. When I was looking, I read good stuff about the Klark-Technic units, but the used ones I found were something like three times the price of the Rane I picked up (which was also pretty well reviewed, if not as glowingly as the K-Ts). For my first parametric EQ, I went with the cheaper one! If I get another rack unit, I'll look into the Rane.

You're right about unintended consequences. I use the pedal for live play. But when I seriously record, I take everything out of the chain except the DI - except when I need a specific effect coloring the front end. In a live setting - especially if it's loud - no one will hear the difference except experts on Talk Bass!

B-b-but... I'm an expert on Talkbass!

 

[JGR]

Thanks for the reply, Jonathan. I'm thinking of this DI in the context of combination preamp (feeding a poweramp, perhaps with an external EQ in pedal or rack form, perhaps without, if I can get away with it) and DI signal to FOH. I don't tend to dial in a lot of grit or anything that most people would describe as overdrive, but I do use the gain controls on amps to dial in the tone and feel -- get that combination of rich harmonics and a hint of "bounce" that I like. Re. the latter, I hate anything that feels squishy or compressed, and a lot of tube gear feels too "soft" to me. But, just a bit of that reactive something -- not enough that slapping starts to feel compressed -- is nice, and makes the electric feel like a responsive acoustic instrument. I also think of it as akin to running on a natural surface -- or even a rubberized track -- vs. on concrete.

So, three questions to follow up:

• Can this DI, used as a front end, achieve any of that bounce? Maybe that's not a desirable thing in a DI. The main thing I want out of tube gear is a combination of clarity, "3D-ness" (have to put that a better way) and harmonic richness. Any "bouncyness" is secondary and a tricky balance to hit right.
• By "frequency compensation" do you mean EQ, or something else?
• I'm aware, now, of the importance of matching the sensitivity of a poweramp with the potential output voltage of a preamp. And I know that piezo upright bass pickups, for instance, want to see a higher impedance than magnetic electric bass pickups. But impedance issues between poweramps and preamps isn't something I've ever thought about. Is that something I need to take into account (not just with this DI, but in general)? That would seem to make life just a bit more complicated.

Now that I'm thinking about it, what's the input impedance on the DI? I'm wondering if it would be friendly with piezos (upright bass and cello pickups) as well as magnetic pickups. Most people using the former have something like an fDeck or Fishman or other preamp that takes care of the impedance issue, but it would be nice to know if one could plug in directly.

I think "bounce" is a good term - feel is a huge component of design because it impacts how you play which in turn impacts the sound. It's something I always factor in - I don't want it squishy or sloppy, and I don't want it totally stiff and sterile - so it's always a balancing act. You want a certain amount of give - or elasticity or bounce or compression - whatever you want to call it, in the initial attack, followed by the slam.

Regarding frequency compensation, I was talking about high pass filtering emulating what you would get in with a regular paper cone speaker to roll off the bumble bees you get sending overdriven tones through full range speakers - I put this in the post side of the DI in some of my preamps to make overdriven tones sound sweet running direct to the board or PA should one want to.

With piezo's, you want to see a higher input impedance at the amp's input - this design is 2.2M which is as high as I like to go - going higher, like say 5M, starts to sound brash with electric. So it might work OK with some piezo pickups, but something like the fDeck is a good way to go. Making it switchable is an option but I'm not sure I want to add that feature. Perhaps. On the back end, you need to have a low impedance out with sufficient level to drive a power amp input with no ill effects. Should be pretty standard (though some designs aren't up to the challenge). You need to take it case by case.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Fuzzbass, no need to stop posting your updates regarding the amp after your gigs as far as I'm concerned .. I definitely enjoy reading them. It's a great way to hear about the amp in situ.

And the video was great. I can definitely hear you in there! Great sound!!

Hey, thanks. I hope I talk more about the amp than I do about myself. But seriously, I have no gigs this weekend, so y'all get a break regardless.

Even so, now that I've been through three gigs, including two with the loud rock band, I can now officially declare that the 1200 is my #1 gig amp.

For the past year I've been using the Aguilar Tone Hammer 500 for half my gigs -- biggest exception being my loud rock band. I still like this amp a lot, but the 1200 has the tone! I will keep the TH500 as a small/light backup. To me, the only advantage the Aggie has over the 1200 is that it is so small and light: it's super easy to schlep in its shoulder bag, you barely notice it's there. The 1200 is bulkier and heavier, but of course my 4U rack rigs are bulkier and heavier than the 1200, even though they use fairly lightweight power amps (17lbs).

Before the Aggie I used my rack rigs exclusively, and still did with the loud rock band. Not just because they were louder (1800W bridged), but because of my array of rockin' preamps. For the past few years I've mostly gone with my Reiner 1U tube preamp, but with the rock band I would still occasionally use Ampeg SVP-Pro, SWR Interstellar Overdrive, or one or two of my SansAmps (RBI, RPM, VT-RM). The JGR gear can do overdrive very well, especially with a hot active bass, but for modern hard rock like Metallica, RATM, and Seether, I like to kick in a more processed-sounding OD. I have never been a pedal guy before... I have always preferred to run one cord from bass to amp and keep my stage area clear. However I love the 1200 so much, even with the rock band, that I'll give up the rack rigs and stomp on a pedal for the metal (as I mentioned before).

I may even look into a pedalboard. I don't plan to use any FX other than overdrive and possibly compression, but the singer in the rock band can sometimes get careless and I'd prefer that he kick a pedalboard, not pedal(s).

Rambling aside, the point is that the Studio 1200 is The One for me. It has boutique tube tone, tons of power, in a small (and badass looking) box. Most of the tech talk just previously went over my head... all I can say is that the 1200 has the perfect amount of tube shimmer, adjustable via the Gain control of course. When set flat, the 1200 is as flat as any gear I've used. The 5-band EQ is more than enough to deal with funky room acoustics. It's loud enough for my loud rock band. It's not as mini as the SS/hybrid minis out there, but I prefer a true tube preamp, and the extra wattage, so I'm happy to carry a little extra weight and bulk for that, thank you.

The only hard part now is to decide what to do with all my rack gear. No hurry on that, though.

 

[Sliderbass]

Friday night's gig was awesome. I played a nice bar in swanky Chevy Chase MD. We didn't get swanky pay, but did get a free meal. Cut to the chase, the 1200 was spectacular through the pair of Berg CN112 cabs. I mostly used my Sadowsky P with TI flats. As usual I kept EQ fairly flat, but I dialed in a warm phat classic rock/country/blues tone. I also bumped gain a bit for a smidge of tube overdrive.

I was a little worried when I saw that the 3' high stage was wooden and hollow -- thought maybe I should have brought the Gramma pad. Turns out the stage sounded really nice: I had no issues with dead or boomy notes. Obligatory pixies:

Stage lighting was very yellow.

Nice bling by the entrance: vintage Jag and three-wheel roadster

Ken, I wish I had known you were at Clyde's That stage is pretty neutral. Did the wait staff keep messing with the mixer?

 

[Fuzzbass]

Ken, I wish I had known you were at Clyde's That stage is pretty neutral. Did the wait staff keep messing with the mixer?

Funny you mention: the Friday night band cleverly (?!) avoided the wait staff problem. I thought the bandleader was utterly bonkers for dragging his own PA over the loading dock and through the kitchen when house sound was already set up, but he said he was nervous about using another system. Not sure why, his day job is running a recording studio, so he's not exactly a rookie about knob-twiddling. Oh well, it all turned out OK. Two songs in we were told to turn down a little, but had no issues after that.

The stage was definitely neutral: my 1200/CN112 stack sounded great! Seemed to be a nice sounding room overall.




Oh... not that anyone noticed, but the drummer was the same (big "JEFF" on the kick drum) at both my Friday and Saturday gigs with 2 different bands. I've been subbing with the Friday night band for awhile, and I like Jeff so much that I call him first when my rock band needs a drum sub. The previous drummer sounded great on loud rock tunes because he hit hard as hell, but let's just say that there are times when a drummer should not hit that hard. Just throwing this in because gigging with a drummer who can groove makes me even happier than perfect bass tone.

 

[John D Harris]

... Just throwing this in because gigging with a drummer who can groove makes me even happier than perfect bass tone.

+1

Really good drummers are worth their weight in bacon gravy!!!

 

[kd5uwl]

JGR,

I hope all is well with you today! Just making my weekly weekend check-in to see how the Studio 1200 amps are coming along?