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Reiner Amplification Megathread

#1,161
This post is about using the Reiner Studio 1200 with acoustic bass.

I had the good fortune to recently acquire a 2001 Taylor AB-1 acoustic bass guitar. My Ukiah-based luthier, Invalid Link Removed, just upgraded the pickup and preamp. The stock Fishman ABGP-2 pickup/preamp/tone control was known to be the weak point on this bass. The replacement is the Link Removed and Link Removed unit. I also installed La Bella Deep Talkin' Bass 760N black nylon tape wounds.

Yesterday I plugged the modified bass into the Studio 1200 for the first time. Wasn't particularly keen on the quality of tone and sound ... something seemed off. The new Fishman has a nominal output impedance of 1k Ohm with a recommended load impedance of 10k Ohm and above. According to the Studio 1200 manual, input impedance is 2.2M. I'm not an electronics wizard and have no idea what this means, but suspected I needed to match the impedance. I did that with an Fdeck HPF Pre and immediately was in tone nirvana.

This morning I did some quick recordings to hear results with various combinations of gear. The clips are my bassline from a 2 minute / two-verse take of "Mule" written by Andrew Robertson.

Studio 1200 DI (pre EQ)
Link Removed (horn on full for "PA mode")

TecAmp Puma 900 (solid state) DI (pre EQ)
TecAmp Puma 900 and Barefaced BB2
TecAmp Puma 900 and Greenboy Audio Crazy8 cab ("PA type" tone)

I used a Zoom F8 recorder @ 48kHz sample rate and 24 WAV bit depth. Cabs were mic'd with a Peluso 22 251 large diaphragm tube condenser microphone placed about six inches from the middle of each cab grill. Results above are MP3s @ 192kB/s. There is no EQ or effects applied; these are the raw recordings.

There are distinct differences between the Studio 1200 and solid state Puma. I detect more clarity and definition to the notes with the Studio 1200. Definitely more harmonic content with the Studio 1200. The Puma is warmer and rounder in tone. I slightly boosted the bass on the Studio 1200; ditto for the Puma and also slightly boosted the "Taste" knob. Tweaking the knobs with both would yield different results. What you hear above will at least provide a sense of how acoustic bass sounds with the Studio 1200 compared with a high quality solid state amp.

Taylor%20AB-1%20test.jpg



FWIW, here's the song "Mule" played by our band, The Stormy Weathermen. For this recording, I used a Rob Allen Deep 4 fretless bass through the Puma 900 and Crazy8, which was mic'd with an AKG Perception 400 large diaphragm condenser mic. Has nothing to do with the Reiner Studio 1200, but what the heck!

 
Last edited:
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#1,164
N. Kentucky Bass said:
This post is about using the Reiner Studio 1200 with acoustic bass.

I had the good fortune to recently acquire a 2001 Taylor AB-1 acoustic bass guitar. My Ukiah-based luthier, Invalid Link Removed, just upgraded the pickup and preamp. The stock Fishman ABGP-2 pickup/preamp/tone control was known to be the weak point on this bass. The replacement is the Link Removed and Link Removed unit. I also installed La Bella Deep Talkin' Bass 760N black nylon tape wounds.

Yesterday I plugged the modified bass into the Studio 1200 for the first time. Wasn't particularly keen on the quality of tone and sound ... something seemed off. The new Fishman has a nominal output impedance of 1k Ohm with a recommended load impedance of 10k Ohm and above. According to the Studio 1200 manual, input impedance is 2.2M. I'm not an electronics wizard and have no idea what this means, but suspected I needed to match the impedance. I did that with an Fdeck HPF Pre and immediately was in tone nirvana.

This morning I did some quick recordings to hear results with various combinations of gear. The clips are my bassline from a 2 minute / two-verse take of "Mule" written by Andrew Robertson.

Studio 1200 DI (pre EQ)
Link Removed (horn on full for "PA mode")

TecAmp Puma 900 (solid state) DI (pre EQ)
TecAmp Puma 900 and Barefaced BB2
TecAmp Puma 900 and Greenboy Audio Crazy8 cab ("PA type" tone)

I used a Zoom F8 recorder @ 48kHz sample rate and 24 WAV bit depth. Cabs were mic'd with a Peluso 22 251 large diaphragm tube condenser microphone placed about six inches from the middle of each cab grill. Results above are MP3s @ 192kB/s. There is no EQ or effects applied; these are the raw recordings.

There are distinct differences between the Studio 1200 and solid state Puma. I detect more clarity and definition to the notes with the Studio 1200. Definitely more harmonic content with the Studio 1200. The Puma is warmer and rounder in tone. I slightly boosted the bass on the Studio 1200; ditto for the Puma and also slightly boosted the "Taste" knob. Tweaking the knobs with both would yield different results. What you hear above will at least provide a sense of how acoustic bass sounds with the Studio 1200 compared with a high quality solid state amp.

Taylor%20AB-1%20test.jpg



FWIW, here's the song "Mule" played by our band, The Stormy Weathermen. For this recording, I used a Rob Allen Deep 4 fretless bass through the Puma 900 and Crazy8, which was mic'd with an AKG Perception 400 large diaphragm condenser mic. Has nothing to do with the Reiner Studio 1200, but what the heck!

Click to expand...



Hey Dave!

I wouldn't have thought to try the fDeck based on the specs you had sent as it should have been OK, but kudos for investigating further, and I'm glad you found a solution - the fDeck seems like a great piece of Swiss Army gear that is always good to have around. The tracks sound great, and that bass is beautiful!
 
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#1,165
N. Kentucky Bass said:
This post is about using the Reiner Studio 1200 with acoustic bass.

I had the good fortune to recently acquire a 2001 Taylor AB-1 acoustic bass guitar. My Ukiah-based luthier, Invalid Link Removed, just upgraded the pickup and preamp. The stock Fishman ABGP-2 pickup/preamp/tone control was known to be the weak point on this bass. The replacement is the Link Removed and Link Removed unit. I also installed La Bella Deep Talkin' Bass 760N black nylon tape wounds.

Yesterday I plugged the modified bass into the Studio 1200 for the first time. Wasn't particularly keen on the quality of tone and sound ... something seemed off. The new Fishman has a nominal output impedance of 1k Ohm with a recommended load impedance of 10k Ohm and above. According to the Studio 1200 manual, input impedance is 2.2M.
Click to expand...

2.2 Meg is definitely well above 10K, just sayin'. The fDeck3's input impedance is even higher, 10 Meg. Probably something other than impedance at work there, but don't knock success! Link Removed
 
#1,167
OK, after drilling the acoustic bass for a few weeks with the Studio 1200 and Puma 900, I'm strongly preferring the Puma's voicing. I can make the Studio 1200 "work" with heavy boost of bass and rolling off treble, but it's still not quite in the same sonic ballpark as the solid state Puma. This is interesting because the Puma can't touch the sonic quality/bliss of the Studio 1200 when I use a standard electric bass through the rig. Curious if any of you Studio 1200 owners who also run acoustic bass guitars/uprights with piezo pickups through the amp can share your EQing tips?
 
#1,168
N. Kentucky Bass said:
OK, after drilling the acoustic bass for a few weeks with the Studio 1200 and Puma 900, I'm strongly preferring the Puma's voicing. I can make the Studio 1200 "work" with heavy boost of bass and rolling off treble, but it's still not quite in the same sonic ballpark as the solid state Puma. This is interesting because the Puma can't touch the sonic quality/bliss of the Studio 1200 when I use a standard electric bass through the rig. Curious if any of you Studio 1200 owners who also run acoustic bass guitars/uprights with piezo pickups through the amp can share your EQing tips?
Click to expand...

Do you know the difference in input impedance / are you using a buffered HPF?
 
#1,169
thumbs&fingers said:
I believe the driver is the fatal. I don't know if I cud articulate my perception of the difference in sound between 8 and 4 ohm. But I always prefer 4 ohms because I only use one can at a time and want as much juice I can get out of the amp at volume sweet spot
Click to expand...

Jeff Scott said:
My condolences..............................
Click to expand...

I missed your reply -- and the resultant puns! -- earlier. Thanks.

N. Kentucky Bass said:
OK, after drilling the acoustic bass for a few weeks with the Studio 1200 and Puma 900, I'm strongly preferring the Puma's voicing. I can make the Studio 1200 "work" with heavy boost of bass and rolling off treble, but it's still not quite in the same sonic ballpark as the solid state Puma. This is interesting because the Puma can't touch the sonic quality/bliss of the Studio 1200 when I use a standard electric bass through the rig. Curious if any of you Studio 1200 owners who also run acoustic bass guitars/uprights with piezo pickups through the amp can share your EQing tips?
Click to expand...

peterpalmieri said:
Do you know the difference in input impedance / are you using a buffered HPF?
Click to expand...

I was going to ask if you've been running with the fDeck, too (thinking probably yes, given your earlier post on its effect with the Taylor). I looked at the documents you linked earlier on the Fishman stuff, and this one -- Link Removed -- does indeed list a 1 kOhm output impedance and greater than 10 kOhm recommended load impedance, as you say. Puma manual lists its input impedance as 1 MegOhm. I know that you said you like the sound of the Taylor into the Puma, but have you tried running it with the fDeck into the Puma, just to see what it does? This doesn't address your EQ question, but I'm curious as to what might contribute to what you're observing.

As to EQ, I've never played through a Studio 1200 but sometimes with piezo pickups you can clear up and smooth out the sound by scooping some mids-upper mids. I almost never scoop mids for any reason with bass guitar, but, in my few experiences playing amplified upright, that has been the case -- with some pickups and some amps, at least. I'm also not terribly familiar with the Puma's voicing, only having briefly played one a couple of times, but it might simply happen to complement what the Fishman system is putting out. It would be instructive, I think, to plug your Taylor directly into your recording interface and see how what you get compares with the D.I.s of the two amps.

Finally, in skimming the manuals, it looks like there's a "bass boost" and "flat" voicing switch on the Fishman. Maybe play with that?

Good luck!
 
#1,170
peterpalmieri said:
Do you know the difference in input impedance / are you using a buffered HPF?
Click to expand...

According to the Fishman Acoustic Matrix preamp specifications:
  • Nominal output impedance: 1k Ohm
  • Recommended load impedance: 10k Ohm and above
The acoustic bass is plugged into a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner ST-300, which is connected to an Fdeck HPF Pre Series 3. According to the Fdeck manual:
  • Input impedance 10 MegOhms / 100pF
  • Active high pass filter cutoff is at about 55-65 Hz
  • I can't find anything in the manual on the topic of buffering. Maybe someone who knows can chime in?
 
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#1,171
MarkA said:
I know that you said you like the sound of the Taylor into the Puma, but have you tried running it with the fDeck into the Puma, just to see what it does? This doesn't address your EQ question, but I'm curious as to what might contribute to what you're observing.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am running the HPF before both amps as it helps with cone excursion on the Crazy8 cab(s) and sounds better, too.

As to EQ, I've never played through a Studio 1200 but sometimes with piezo pickups you can clear up and smooth out the sound by scooping some mids-upper mids. I almost never scoop mids for any reason with bass guitar, but in my few experiences playing amplified upright that has been the case with some amps, at least. I'm also not terribly familiar with the Puma's voicing, only having briefly played one a couple of times, but it might simply happen to complement what the Fishman system is putting out. It would be instructive, I think, to plug your Taylor directly into your recording interface and see how what you get compares with the D.I.s of the two amps.

Finally, in skimming the manuals, it looks like there's a "bass boost" and "flat" voicing switch on the Fishman. Maybe play with that?

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll try scooping the mids/upper mids. Didn't think of that. I'm slightly boosting the bass on the Fishman and leaving the treble flat.
 
#1,172
N. Kentucky Bass said:
According to the Fishman Acoustic Matrix preamp specifications:
  • Nominal output impedance: 1k Ohm
  • Recommended load impedance: 10k Ohm and above
The acoustic bass is plugged into a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner ST-300, which is connected to an Fdeck HPF Pre Series 3. According to the Fdeck manual:
  • Input impedance 10 MegOhms / 100pF
  • Active high pass filter cutoff is at about 55-65 Hz
  • I can't find anything in the manual on the topic of buffering. Maybe someone who knows can chime in?
Click to expand...

If you are using the Fdeck it shouldn't be an impedance issue.
 
#1,173
N. Kentucky Bass said:
Yes, I am running the HPF before both amps as it helps with cone excursion on the Crazy8 cab(s) and sounds better, too.

Thanks, I'll try scooping the mids/upper mids. Didn't think of that. I'm slightly boosting the bass on the Fishman and leaving the treble flat.
Click to expand...

I assume that you're referring to the Bass and Treble knobs on the VTB. Page 5 of the Link Removed shows a couple of thumbwheels and a voicing switch on a box inside the soundhole -- do the VTB controls take the place of that, or are both units in place? I was thinking of the voicing switch on the little box.
 
#1,174
MarkA said:
I assume that you're referring to the Bass and Treble knobs on the VTB. Page 5 of the Link Removed shows a couple of thumbwheels and a voicing switch on a box inside the soundhole -- do the VTB controls take the place of that, or are both units in place? I was thinking of the voicing switch on the little box.
Click to expand...

I am using the upgraded VTB active tone controls so the box was not installed.
 
#1,176
N. Kentucky Bass said:
I am using the upgraded VTB active tone controls so the box was not installed.
Click to expand...
Gotcha. Makes sense.

You know, depending on what the piezo puts out, an amp with a fairly open and flat response might not offer the most flattering presentation of its sound (not knocking the Fishman -- looks like a nice system). Too, the harmonic content that the Studio adds to the signal and which is so enriching of slab tone might not be what you're looking for with piezo signal from an ABG (or it might -- I'm just spitballing ideas, here).

I still think it would be instructive to make even a quick, 10 second clip for yourself plugged straight into your recording interface -- maybe using the fDeck, to keep things consistent -- and see how that compares to the D.I. signal with the two amps. Try playing with the Gain on the Studio -- maybe a lower setting than you use with electric will give it a less "harmonically excited" sound -- and try rolling down the treble on the Fishman more with the Studio than you do with the Puma, to see what that gets you.

Again, just throwing out ideas! They're different amps and might need different approaches to get what you want.
 
#1,177
silky smoove said:
My Studio 1200 sounds great with my NS NXT4 electric upright (piezo pickups). I tend to run the gain lower than I do with a bass guitar, but it's always worked well for me.
Click to expand...
You know, by posting that thing about trying lower gain before I did, you kinda made me look less smart. Expect a serious snub at recess! I'll probably be over it by lunchtime, though. Speaking of which...
 
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#1,179
Quick test of lowering the mids and upper mids has improved tone (granted, still in the home studio w/o band) but still need to boost bass significantly on the S1200. I also backed off the preamp to about 10:00. I'll have to try the recording tests later.

I'm aiming to make the S1200 do-able if I'm in a doubling situation to avoid hooking up the Puma for acoustic songs. If it's a quieter acoustic only situation, the Puma will be go-to amp w/the Crazy8 or a pair of 8s. The S1200 is almost as heavy as a single cab! :)
 

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