Double Bass Respect What is it? How do you earn it? (DB Forum thread)

[Treyzer]

Good points about using some other name than your own. I really don't think it's a problem unless you choose to hide behind it. If your profile is filled out, who cares what you decide to call yourself. However, there have been more than a few (all age groups) that have used this as a device to sit back and take potshots, be nasty, act snarky and generally be obnoxious. In the real world , face to face most of these guys probably wouldn't even have the gumption to come up and say hi but the internet offers a place to hide for those who wish to do so. Also regarding new people. I think everyone should be welcomed and beginners should be encouraged. However, they also have a responsibility to act in an appropriate way.

Regardless of how you were brought up and how old you are and what you believe you are entitled to; would you really go into someone else's house, grab a beer and make a sandwich, sit in their favorite chair, grab the channel changer and then yell at the owner of the house that the beer is not your favorite and why doesn't he have HBO? OK maybe not a great analogy but admit it most of you at least chuckled a little bit!

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Thats generally true, but you sorta can't compare it to RL Trey. You won't find many Trolls in RL, but trolling is a past time only found on the intertubes. You will never be able to rid the internet of trolling.

IMO, rating someones post is probably the only thing you can really do to suppress them.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Regarding ratings systems: I lobbied hard for these *not* to be implemented at TB because of other sites I've seen and spent time at where the result of the ratings system was that they became an overt popularity contest in which the biggest know-nothing/do-nothing internet hang-out-in-your-parent's-basement-in-your-underwear-cyber-yap types had the highest ratings (because they gave them to each other instead of earning them). It was a nightmare. The current admins also voted to exclude off topic posts from users' post counts to avoid this kind of behavior (yes, people were actually intentionally "padding their post counts" here in the OT forums).

I think we're better off letting our behavior speak for itself, and allowing those too willfully blind to see to bump into walls constructed of their own denial. Over time, these folks either tend to knock themselves out or open their eyes.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

I think we're better off letting our behavior speak for itself.

At the end of the day, that's what I believe too. My ratings comment was a bit ill-considered.

I've been part of some forums -- well, at least one -- that are over-moderated. They do a good job of keeping things in-line and on-topic and all that, but Mussolini made the trains run on time, too. It's great if you like on-time trains.

 

[Lee H]

In answer to the original question about respect...Does it really matter?
I know I cannot please everyone. I do not view life as a popularity contest. I do like to have friends, who think well of me. That is a given. I get them by being who I am, and maintaining my own beliefs. In doing so, I am noticed by like individuals. I may not always agree with them, but I accept them for who they are, in the same manner I expect them to accept me.
If you are about to point out that this is a sure sign of a Type A personality, you are right. I will never deny that. I am aware of my own shortcomings, and if I have forget, I am sure I can find an enemy or two who will remind me of them.

 

[Marc Piane]

I think we're better off letting our behavior speak for itself, and allowing those too willfully blind to see to bump into walls constructed of their own denial. Over time, these folks either tend to knock themselves out or open their eyes.

Couldn't have said it better. +1

 

[Marty Forrer]

Such is the nature of life on internet forums that a thick skin and judicious selection is required. The world is full of keyboard warriors wanting to do battle. I belong to several forums of differing natures, and a common feature is the need to sift through the dross to find the gems. This forum is no different. Also required is the ability to treat a jerks antagonistic post with the disdain it deserves, rather than biting back and giving said jerk the satisfaction of knowing he got to you.
Also, if you get called out or rebuked on something (it's happened to me) you need to look at it from the other person's point of view before getting the knickers in a twist. It might be a valid point.
Lastly, your/my opinion is not necessarily correct/better than another persons. We all look at things from a different perspective. I recently had reason to be called illogical by a respected poster here. Fair enough, I have my opinion and unless I get shown that it's flawed, I'll stick with it. It's worked for me through decades of being a fully pro and now semi pro musician. However, I'm not about to throw my toys out of the sandpit because someone thinks I'm wrong. It all comes back to my first point.... all forum dwellers need to have a thick skin.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Regarding ratings, yeah rating users is kinda useless, however rating threads and rec'ing them has more value. I personally don't care what rating a person gets, I do however care if the thread is deemed as a load of crap by a lot of users. Those with low ratings, I prolly won't bother to look at.

And just to play devil's advocate: As much as we all prize people with long resumes, there's also the ad hominem fallacy that just because you don't have experience invalidates your argument. The argument needs to be assessed on it's own merits, not the posters credentials. Shoot the message, don't shoot the messenger. However, if this is taken too far, then it can bring it's own ills.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

I'm pretty happy for this thread, strangely. I think its important to remember that a great number of people who come to this site never sign up and/or only lurk, so I think its important for those of us who "contribute" to the knowledge base here at TBDB that their posts are archived and available to people who are probably researching a major purchase. Lets try to present the best possible info, right?

When I first was getting the hang of TB, I sometimes contributed to topics I had little info on and remember being smacked down on an occasion or two! I didn't take it personally, and came to understand why others were frustrated by having to dispel causally posted misinformation. This is why today you'll mostly find me in the string forum, or occasionally jazz technique. What I think I'm getting at is if you want to build some respect, speak on topics you have firsthand knowledge of and can articulate well. I'm not sure regurgitating chestnuts helps too much now that the archive on here is so big! I've also updated my profile so I people on here can see what I do and where I'm coming from.

Speaking of which: Chris, can you help me delete some of my earliest posts? Some of that stuff is straight up wrong :/ Live and learn, I guess.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Cody Sisk]

I read this quote on a political blog once and it really stuck with me. It very much describes issues we see here and issues with congress.

I stole your quote blatantly and without shame. It's my facebook status now..

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Knock yourself out. You're not quoting me.

 

[TroyK]

So, it looks like we're talking about forum respect rather than musician respect. I actually thought about starting this thread earlier this week, but then thought better of it. It seems to be going fairly well, though, so I'll play along a bit. Suggest moving it out of Jazz Technique, though.

Let me clarify, because I've been caught up in this lately, I don't look down at my nose at bass guitarists. I don't look down at my nose at any good musician or any musician putting themselves out there honestly. I just object to a bass guitarist recommending an amp to a doublebassist on a doublebass forum, for example. Not because I think I'm superior to them, but because I think they're giving unqualified advice and presenting it otherwise. Same for technique, maintenance and repair, etc, etc. No matter what the desire for everyone to be equal and free to express their opinion, it's not going to change that.

As for respect. It's not cool for someone regardless of age to register, demand information or validation for some decision that they made prior to posting and the post something like "Whatever dude, get over yourself" to someone like (hypothetically) Francois when they get a response that does not support their original assertion. It never will be. It's got nothing to do with elitism or a boy's club or even who is a serious cat and who isn't. It's just bad behavior that dilutes and cheapens any real sense of community and this a real-world community that has a e-presence, not just some weird blogosphere. I walked away from this argument in a different thread, but that's why we lose good resources it is to our collective detriment, even if we're feeling so self righteous about the current thread, whatever it may be, to see it at the time.

I recently registered on a completely unrelated forum that I won't mention because it will only show what a geek I am, but on there your first 5 posts are moderated. You post, they go into a purgatory until a moderator reviews them and then allows them. After that, you're on your own. Mine were passed through without comment and I got a very warm reception there, but it occurred to me that this might be a good system. Screen out and/or deter trolls, a chance to direct someone to a sticky or a search before hitting the boards, a chance to redirect whatever their question is away from the poor "basses" forum, which is the general dumping ground for everyone new who can't be bothered with looking at the whole page, etc. Of course it creates work for the mods, but maybe it would reduce other work for them. Just a thought.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Let me clarify, because I've been caught up in this lately, I don't look down at my nose at bass guitarists. I don't look down at my nose at any good musician or any musician putting themselves out there honestly. I just object to a bass guitarist recommending an amp to a doublebassist on a doublebass forum, for example. Not because I think I'm superior to them, but because I think they're giving unqualified advice and presenting it otherwise.

I have a hard time believe any real DB player will look down at any other musician. It's not about the instrument, it's about the hard work and hard won experience that you've gained. But shedding til you're blue in the face does not make you a fact god. Instrument prejudice has been always kind of a silly idea to me. No way in hell am I going to put Victor Wooten or Michael Manring down because they play a slab. That's just ridiculous. I think EB players come in here project prejudices that just aren't there. Part of earning respect means paying your dues, not what instrument you shed on.

As for respect. It's not cool for someone regardless of age to register, demand information or validation for some decision that they made prior to posting and the post something like "Whatever dude, get over yourself" to someone like (hypothetically) Francois when they get a response that does not support their original assertion. It never will be. It's got nothing to do with elitism or a boy's club or even who is a serious cat and who isn't. It's just bad behavior that dilutes and cheapens any real sense of community and this a real-world community that has a e-presence, not just some weird blogosphere.

In another forum I'm in, the common response to anyone who is talking at other is "Nice blog bro" followed by some expletives and insults. But this is what I'm talking about when someone isn't here to listen. If you don't wanna listen and just post to pump up your ego, go tell it to your mom, the reading public doesn't need to hear it.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Speaking of which: Chris, can you help me delete some of my earliest posts? Some of that stuff is straight up wrong :/ Live and learn, I guess.

Part of Paul's vision for the forum is that we no longer delete old posts except in cases of identity concern, and then we only delete the sensitive information. He wants people to stand behind their posts, and this is an incentive to do so. The good news is that not many people see the really old posts. In addition to thinking it's good policy, I am personally happy for this.

Suggest moving it out of Jazz Technique, though.

 

[TroyK]

I say "jump" and Captain Jean-Luc Picard says "how high?" Wow, you're blowing my mind, Chris Fitzgerald.

 

[Treyzer]

So, it looks like we're talking about forum respect rather than musician respect. I actually thought about starting this thread earlier this week, but then thought better of it. It seems to be going fairly well, though, so I'll play along a bit. Suggest moving it out of Jazz Technique, though.

This is a very interesting way to start a post. You were going to do this but then thought the better of it but now you will play along. However you suggest it be moved. Wow, I'm impressed. This reminds me of a funny saying we had in L.A. regarding a specific trait that many people in the arts seem to display. "Enough about me talking about me, what do you think about me?"

Let me clarify, because I've been caught up in this lately, I don't look down at my nose at bass guitarists. I don't look down at my nose at any good musician or any musician putting themselves out there honestly. I just object to a bass guitarist recommending an amp to a doublebassist on a doublebass forum, for example. Not because I think I'm superior to them, but because I think they're giving unqualified advice and presenting it otherwise.

Again you're pretty much making this about yourself. I guess if that's how you see it, cool.

As for respect. It's not cool for someone regardless of age to register, demand information or validation for some decision that they made prior to posting and the post something like "Whatever dude, get over yourself" to someone like (hypothetically) Francois when they get a response that does not support their original assertion. It never will be. It's got nothing to do with elitism or a boy's club or even who is a serious cat and who isn't. It's just bad behavior that dilutes and cheapens any real sense of community and this a real-world community that has a e-presence, not just some weird blogosphere. I walked away from this argument in a different thread.....

Bingo, no argument here Troy. This is why I thought it might be important to have this discussion.

I wanted this thread in the Jazz Technique forum because that's where many of us spend a lot of our time. Some of the posts by people who contribute often as well as those who don't have been insightful and served to move the discussion along in interesting ways. Sam Sherry's post really hit home with me.

I did not start this thread for my own edification. In point of fact, I rarely get into the kind of verbal dust ups that sometimes transpire here and are typically brought on by people who show little respect for others. I have neither the time or inclination to engage with people who seem intent on making fools of themselves. We can always ignore trolls and ignorance and those we deem obnoxious. However, it was important to me to hear what others who frequent this forum had to say and in this regard, I'm thankful that this thread, at least up to a few posts back, seems to have accomplished this goal.

All The Best and Happy Holidays Everyone,

Trey

 

[TroyK]

Hey Trey, I'm not sure if we've ever crossed paths before, but...wow, am little surprised with your reaction. Let's try to clear a few things up and hope it doesn't make things worse. Can't help but feel you may have possibly misjudged me, though.

Sorry if you're upset that I suggested relocating your thread, it wasn't personal or intended to be malicious. My tone here and some of the points I tried to make carried over from the "paint my bass" thread that I know you've seen now. On that thread, anyway, it seems we may share some common ground. I was chastised in that thread for NOT suggesting that it be moved to Setup and Repair, so with yours I did. Sorry, again, it wasn't personal and I wasn't trying to be a dick. I'm also not the narcissist that you're implying, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince you of that.

I did consider starting a thread spinning off of the aforementioned "paint" debacle, on just how much we should or shouldn't collectively concern ourselves with the types of things we've been arguing about lately, but decided to at least give it a few days and see if I still felt that way or if I should leave well enough alone. When i saw the title of your thread, i wondered if it was related, but at first glance, it looked like maybe it was about musicianship, so I replied with that in mind (in a very non-self promotional way, as I recall). The next several posts were about TB forum behavior, so I posted what seems to have set you off.

Again, sorry if it rubbed you wrong or if you took it personally. If I have a history of annoying you as you described, then you and I are probably not meant to be. If your summary of my psyche is based on that one post, you might consider giving it a second look in context. Either way, I'm pretty burned on talkbass this week despite having made a great trade with a stranger in Oklahoma who I feel very friendly with now that we've trusted each other enough to mail $400 worth of pickups with no questions asked or doubts raised. There's the rub with Talkbass, it would be easier to walk away from the soap opera bs if it wasn't for the real world value that the community can be and has been for some.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about it, though. I've had too much of that on Talkbass this week. You've got to admit that it's a little bit ironic that you start a thread about respect and then say the things that you said to me in what, as far as I know, is our first direct interaction with one another.

Maybe not, it's been a weird week.

Edit: If this was meant to be a Jazz Technique subforum, discussion, I'm sorry for getting into it. It's not a forum that I spend a lot of time in. It's not an area that I feel best qualified to give a lot of advice. Maybe I'm missing context based on what goes on in there. Don't know.

I also want to say that Sam's post really resonated with me too, as Sam's contributions always tend to do. Ditto on Chris's. Actually, I felt pretty aligned with this discussion right up to the point where you drug me down. Just saying.

 

[Treyzer]

Hey Trey, I'm not sure if we've ever crossed paths before, but...wow, am little surprised with your reaction. Let's try to clear a few things up and hope it doesn't make things worse. Can't help but feel you may have possibly misjudged me, though.

Sorry if you're upset that I suggested relocating your thread, it wasn't personal or intended to be malicious. My tone here and some of the points I tried to make carried over from the "paint my bass" thread that I know you've seen now.........
Again, sorry if it rubbed you wrong or if you took it personally. If I have a history of annoying you as you described, then you and I are probably not meant to be.

Troy we're cool. We have posted in the same threads many times over the years and have addressed each other more than a few times on this forum. I have followed and commented on your many string forays/explorations hopefully with mirth and support.

I was very much aware I was posting this thread in the Jazz Technique category however, I'm fine with where the thread ended up. Most of the people I wanted to reach hang out in that part of the forum.

My intent in responding to your post was to provide some feedback regarding how your words could be interpreted by someone else: the OP, moi. I was not trying to insult you or, in the now common usage, disrespect you. (LOL) You have to admit, at least the first quoted portion of your post is a little self serving, or it could be interpreted by someone else as a little overly self-absorbed. If you think not, then no worries.

The 3rd quote that I took from your post is very well written. It is "spot on" and I said so in my reply. We are in complete agreement. In point of fact, if you had started with this very strong, logical and compelling argument, my reply would have simply been Bravo and nothing more.

I think Mr. Rondeau mentioned earlier in this thread something regarding the many levels and styles of written communication. Maybe I just misunderstood the intent of your writing. Anyway, again, were cool, no worries Brah!

Trey

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Orrin Evans had a great vid posted on his Facebook page a while back, I'm sorry that isn't available on youtube or somewhere...