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Double Bass Respect What is it? How do you earn it? (DB Forum thread)

#61
drurb said:
I think of TB as a local bar where folks sit around and exchange information. There are the regulars who get to know each other over years, have inside jokes, and can rib each other in good humor. New folks are welcome to come and pull up a chair. They should be greeted with open arms. You wouldn't, however, stroll into a bar as a newcomer and start right off with, "Hey you fools, let me tell you what it's all about." Or... "Hey I want to know about this right now!" Sure the analogy breaks down if you push it too far but you get the picture.
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This analogy is perfect. Even with the occasional fight behind the pool tables, most people are having a great time. This thread is no exception.

The other reason this analogy works is that there are a number of people here from varying backgrounds on opposite ends of the country sharing exchanges with one another. The media used presents difficulty. It's hard to really read someone's post and interpret it absent body language and inflection. This thread has an example of that too!

Finally, as with any community, respect is earned. You might have to take some licks from trolls or those who would discredit you because you're the new guy or you're misguided or maybe even dead-wrong. It's how you react to this that determines whether or not your future posts will carry any weight. I took some pretty hard knocks over in the DB Setup/Repair forum when I first got there. Though I never lost my cool in an emotional rant, I gave licks right back. With logic and reason, I was able to turn attacks towards the troll and make them look foolish for ever attempting to target me. After putting trolls in their place, I found well-established and respected luthiers and TB'ers weighing in and had my back. Though these same people would oftentimes disagree and debate with me in other topics. Did I get "all butt-hurt" (an internet expression for laughably losing your cool) and show them disrespect for it? Please! I'm not going to argue with say Arnold Schnitzer out of some misguided sense of pride. What good would that do me? I wouldn't learn anything from the exchange.

I remember a poster who remains unnamed who is now the unofficial jester over in the DB Setup/Repair forum. He came in, pissed a bunch of people off for... let's just say taking credit for someone else's work; he then proceeded to throw a tantrum when he was called out and made a spectacle of himself. A few months later, he's back attempting to be civil and helpful, though his posts are largely ignored or scoffed at by the regulars. Sometimes out of a sense of charity, you might find a regular entering a thread where this guy is rambling-some-butchery-he-calls-repair advice in simply for damage control..
 
#62
Treyzer said:
Well it was fun while it lasted. I want to thank all who contributed up to this point for a great discussion on a topic that needed to be addressed. It was cool for over 24 hours. I have learned, enjoyed and gained some insight. That is always good in my view. I also wish all of you a wonderful Holiday Season.

Now I see that those who have to hurl insults, call names and generally be obnoxious have found this thread....Let the games begin :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Can't wait to see what some of our more entitled and/or delusional posters have to say. Anyone want to take bets on how long this thread will remain open?

LOL
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What did you expect......flowers? I dare to say that the first insult (imo) was hurled by you in starting the thread. You fired the first cannonball. I enjoy and value your posts. I think you are a great cat, very articulate, educated, an experienced world traveler, ect......but challenging people to have respect for those you deem worthy when you have no real authority is a sure fire way to start a war in the forums. You can't control who logs on here anymore than you can control the next wave coming at you from the ocean.
 
#63
I just started using the ignore feature. It's a great tool and has a certain value.

Perception is everything. What one person, or many people, would see as an honest question asking for honest answers (which many cats have given in this thread), someone else could conceivably question my motives and perceive my intentions differently.....I guess. Based on my life experiences and perceptions, that's quite a stretch.

In RL, I've earned whatever respect and reputation I've got. I've paid lots of dues. The respect I do have was fairly hard won and involved lots of hard work and some luck. My poor little ego was bruised more than once by cats who were older, wiser and more accomplished. Their opinions mattered. As a matter of fact, they mattered way more than mine because they had paid their dues, earned their stripes among their peers and garnered respect in a very small community of L.A. touring and recording musicians. I truly learned at the feet of some of these guys (to numerous to name). I'm in no way bitter about some of the more humbling experiences that I went through becoming a pro musician in L.A. I took my lumps, learned and moved on thankful for the chances and opportunities that I'd been given.

In this thread a few posts ago, Cody talks about how you can earn respect on this forum. He shares some of his own experience. His thoughts are incisive and instructive!

Regarding waves and life in general, I've never tried to control either. I just enjoy the ride for all it's worth!
 
#65
MR PC said:
What did you expect......flowers? I dare to say that the first insult (imo) was hurled by you in starting the thread. You fired the first cannonball. I enjoy and value your posts. I think you are a great cat, very articulate, educated, an experienced world traveler, ect......but challenging people to have respect for those you deem worthy when you have no real authority is a sure fire way to start a war in the forums. You can't control who logs on here anymore than you can control the next wave coming at you from the ocean.
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A most uncharitable, negative, and, in my opinion, off-the-mark interpretation of the content and intent of Treyzer's original post. No, you can't "control" who logs on and I don't think anyone wants to do that. You can, however, lament the behavior of some who do log on and hold out a glimmer of hope that their less-than-cordial approach might be changed as a result of airing these issues. I guess one could have reasonably expected the (thankfully rare) lobbing of grenades into this otherwise fine discussion.
 
#67
I've found it particularly interesting to hear people directly address the question of how you earn respect. To me that is the key word in all relationships in life. It applies to building a career in music (or any field) or even friendships (online or otherwise).

My 2 cents.

The thing that took me time to learn is it takes time to earn respect. I think it is never ending process.

I think it all starts with learning. Learning in the classroom, on the bandstand, taking your lumps, getting bad grades, making mistakes, getting your heart broken, breaking some hearts, and hopefully not ending up dead or in jail. I think this never ends but there is a freaky transition (that happened for me around 30 years old) where people started to ask my opinion and valuing my answer (perhaps indicating the earning of some modicum of respect). This then really made me evaluate what I had learned and learn by being critical about what I had learned.

I had a professor in college who used to say undergrads learn the lies, masters folk learn they are lies, and doctoral folk make up new lies. I think this is right on but applies in life in general not just the collegiate world.

But this all takes time and patience and the will to power through the bad stuff.

Anyway, just some musings. Back to drinking Bellini's by the fireplace. Happy holidays all.
 
#69
Well said. This thread has brought up some issues in me that I'm trying to sort out. It really is a can of worms and deserves some time. :hmm:

As I grow older earning the respect of people who matter to me is becoming more important than it was in my youth. As the older generation passes, I believe we reflect on their lives and measure them against our own, often coming up short. :help:

Maybe having the integrity to do what is right is a good way of looking at it. Trusting that people I respect who also have integrity will see that trait in me is important to me. Regardless, I am responsible for my behavior.

Integrity is a cornerstone of life and is a magnet for respect.
Certainly grace, mercy, and an open mind are also important. The 'golden rule' always applies but with a qualification. I believe we must threat people in the way that best serves them in the future. Giving mediocrity and excellence equal weight lacks integrity and we should encourage people to strive for excellence in their lives. Integrity.

I have, no doubt, engaged in discussions here in the past that fell short of the mark, but this philosophy is my ideal.

Those are my thoughts on Christmas Day surrounded by family and food. All the best! :)
 
#70
drurb said:
A most uncharitable, negative, and, in my opinion, off-the-mark interpretation of the content and intent of Treyzer's original post. No, you can't "control" who logs on and I don't think anyone wants to do that. You can, however, lament the behavior of some who do log on and hold out a glimmer of hope that their less-than-cordial approach might be changed as a result of airing these issues. I guess one could have reasonably expected the (thankfully rare) lobbing of grenades into this otherwise fine discussion.
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my opinion differs from yours. often. lets drop the uncharitable, negative bit.......lets just say my interpretation of the post is different from yours.

you know, we have excellent moderators here. i trust them. the forum has been designed to work as a business in very specific ways, and the mods do a good job of working with that.

the real ugly fight here that set the tone, imo, was because the OP was pissed off that the another member asked that his thread be moved, and the mod most wisely did so.
 
#71
Treyzer said:
This reminds me of a funny saying we had in L.A. regarding a specific trait that many people in the arts seem to display. "Enough about me talking about me, what do you think about me?"
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Here may be an example of an older player correcting a younger player in a respectful manner in a post without anybody getting pissed:

Hey Trey, have you had too much to drink? :help:
IMO, you got this ************ wrong. It's actually....Enough about me. What do you think of my playing?

See? No big deal. And as far as Trey posting this in the Jazz technique Forum? No big deal. That was the audience he wanted to reach because that's where he seems to spend alotta his time.
Here's an example of an older player giving advice that's he's given before to MR PC, who will get pissed and ride the fence like he normally does:
That therapist I recommended to you years ago? Forget that and just check yourself into the nearest mental facilty.
 
#72
I know there's a move afoot in some forums on the Interwebz to only allow real names. I'm actually quite cool with this, although I understand not everyone will agree with me. I'm pretty much out there for whoever to see and judge, and it seems there are a lot of other folks besides using their own names. Even when someone hides behind a pseudonym (AbadAGruvGod922-hope this is no one's real nom du Talkbass!) and throws bombs you can usually do a bit of TB Forensics and figure out who you're talking to.
In some cases, when it gets really heated I'm not above contacting someone directly via PM and trying to sort it out. This seems to work for the most part.
PW was really invaluable to me when I first started hanging out here and didn't get the sometimes Wild and Wooly nature of interchanges. I owe you big time, Buddy!
For the most part I've made the decision to try to opt for the positive whenever possible and realize that the person acting out may be doing so just to get attention or validation.
As to the original poster's question: Respect is earned by how you play and how you treat others. If you want respect, give respect. If you want friends, be a friend. If you want to be respected for your playing the Road leads through the Practice Room and the Bandstand, IME.
 
#73
you know Paul, one of the charitable things i do during the year is to play music in our local hospital for those born with disabilities, they are Wards of the State.

each time it's a humbling and maturing experience, to say the least.

i truly hope you are feeling better now that some of your financial woes have been staved off, and you get to keep your bass.......some other folks haven't been so lucky to get that kind of breathing room this year.
 
#75
MR PC said:
you know Paul, one of the charitable things i do during the year is to play music in our local hospital for those born with disabilities, they are Wards of the State.

each time it's a humbling and maturing experience, to say the least.

i truly hope you are feeling better now that some of your financial woes have been staved off, and you get to keep your bass.......some other folks haven't been so lucky to get that kind of breathing room this year.
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Not really about luck, Bucko. More about respect. Which has alot to do with this thread. You pulled that information out of the TBDB Classifieds when I was trying to sell my bass.
Silly man.
 
#76
For me, respect is a gift that I give and receive. Sometimes it is given and received. Sometimes it is not. Regardless, it feels good to get it and to give it.

But it doesn't keep me from doing or saying stupid sh*t on occasion. That's just life and I do my best to dust off and keep on livin'.
 
#77
I am sure that I am on the side of evil in the minds of some in this gathering :( I apologise for that.

First, I think there is always a need for respect, and I try to give it.

Second, there are different sorts of expertise. In the "Why isn't jazz more popular" thread, for example, how could you have a meaningful discussion if only people who liked jazz above all else contributed?

Third, there are different levels of expertise. Talkbass has everything from senior pros to bedroom warriors. Somehow it all has to coexist. I'm in the middle somewhere, like most here, and I have no idea how to grade myself and decide who I should be deferential to. Because I am noone famous, I don't see my real name as an issue. Frankly the odds that any of you ever heard of me or anything on my resume are less than high.

So, you senior guys, would you prefer that when we are in the same discussion, that guys like me should never disagree with you? I certainly don't want to lose your insights by making this place unpleasant for you, but neither do I see a point in not speaking up, if only to give you the chance to correct me. :)

Paul, if you are still watching this thread, is anything around of your work with Steven Denny beyond the YouTube clips? I'd love to have audio of that on my iPod if it's released anywhere.
 
#78
I don't think the CS shot PC took at PW is acceptable at all. PW's Bellevue/Camarillo comment is standard fair on the bandstand. The line that PC crossed was a personal attack and a attempt at deformation and slander. I've been taken out by PW and accused of some horrible things but I never reduced myself to the low level of humility examplefied in the reference to a person's financial status. That's not acceptable to me at all. Sorry to ruin the party guys. I'm out.
 
#79
You see, this is where the bar analogy breaks down completely. In real life, you would never see a running battle of sniping and incivility like we've seen in some of these recent posts. Something would have happened to relieve that tension somehow. But here in cyberlife, it just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and.... You see what I mean?

On internet forums, it seems like it's all about signal to noise ratio. TBDB still has a pretty decent quality signal, but sometimes all you get is squawk. Doing *other* stuff is a good way to get it out of your ears and out of your brain.
 
#80
Paul Warburton said:
Not really about luck, Bucko. More about respect. Which has alot to do with this thread. You pulled that information out of the TBDB Classifieds when I was trying to sell my bass.
Silly man.
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Well Paul , you're right," lucky" wouldn't be the correct term, i get that; it might be offensive somehow. i think the term "fortunate" would be more respectful, considering the circumstances compelling the sale of your bass, as you freely outlined to the general public in the classifieds.
 

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