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Rhythmic Space

I think part of the failure to communicate here could be that the question isn't really what works for you, but what is the best way to get another musician (whom we haven't heard from) to feel rhythm the way you can. If you simply said this is what works well for me and I have a natural feel and a great ear, I don't think anyone would care about whether you can read or not. Unless your band mate already has something of that same ability to hear and feel and play (a really great ability by the way), the best way may indeed be to give him some rhythm drills. He no doubt got to where he is today by listening and copying. If he or you don't want to read rhythms, there are probably plenty of youtube videos that show funk rhythms being demonstrated in the style of Steve Cropper, Cornell Dupree, or Jimmy Nolan. I know there are books with CDs in that style. You guys could even work on it together. That way you are building on a foundation of a shared vocabulary the same as you are now only with rock music.
 
Hypothetical

So, let's say you were jamming with someone with some serious whiteboy rhythm and you wanted to help them loosen up and feel some funk/R&B/Hip hop/reggae beats.

Limitations - Neither of you can read or write on a musical staff. You mostly play by feel, convincingly, but once you start to map what divisions you play on a count it becomes a thought on your head for days rather than the matter of seconds/minutes it would take to match up to an unfamiliar rhythm just playing with it by ear.


How would YOU go about trying to open up their rhythmic palette and introduce them to the concepts of using rests to create space, variation, and diversity in your rhythmic plane?

Background on me - My rhythmic sense, I believe is from years of listening to heavy music, a lot of which uses beats you'd find in rap music, and a lot of it also utilizing lots of double bass which is what I'd latch onto. I didn't realize I was building my sense of rhythm at the time, but I'd spend my days in highschool heal/toe tapping my way around rhythms and double bass patterns. I'd been playing stringed instruments for years before I was introduced to my first metronome and I couldn't wrap my head around it at first. I had to put some effort into playing with a metronome before it felt as natural as a drumbeat to me.

When someone first turned me on to the idea of "Funk" it almost came naturally, turning my guitar into a percussive instrument and diving into the world of syncopation. This was before I realized I loved low-end.

I'm not some virtuoso, but I have a lot of fun with rhythm.. drastic pauses in my playing, counting out the rest of the measure and coming back in on the one. Lots of 16th notes landing on different subdivisions within a count. I had a piano teacher transcribe a couple of my rhythms, and while nothing TOO spectacular happens, actually looking at it on paper I can get pretty interesting in note length and placement. And being so ingrained into me, it wasn't until my drummer said to me "Man even I almost had trouble keeping up with that one at first" that I realized my rhythms aren't exactly "Easy". To be fair he's played a beat or two where I just end up standing there looking dumb... but actually seeing my rhythms written I kind of realize my rhythmic sense has been developed over years without even realizing I was doing so. It wasn't like someone was instructing me how to do much of what I can do with an instrument.

I've been trying to get some concepts through to someone, and kind of hoping that by playing with me enough, they start finding it easier to join in on the dance..and that's happening slowly but I can't seem to find the thing that makes that lightbulb go off in his head where he can really start getting creative with syncopation.

Anybody ever had any breakthroughs in teaching someone how to go from what basically amounts to going from Rock and Roll, to Funk?

I've spoken so much about rests and rhythmic space I don't know how else to approach it at this point.
Put the bass away, give him dancing lessons
 
Would you suggest the Tango, the Tootsie Roll, Running man, or pulling out the cardboard and a helmet and going straight into breakdancing? This might be a tough ask for an older gentleman.
We have a thing on this side of the ocean called "Dad dancing". I think that's what "white boy rhythm" equates to. Don't let him do that, Saturday Night Fever is dead and buried
 
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Look man, no grudges, no personal feelings of ill will towards you. I appreciate that you were willing to participate in my thread and offer your experience, even if it doesn't work for me. I'm sure you're very talented and have a ton of experience that I can't say I have. There's more than one way to skin a cat however. If you think of any others feel free. Starting a journey into reading sheet music is not the practical answer I'm looking for.. again why I described in the first place, that this is not a skill I have readily available to me, or the individual in question.

All I'm looking for, is a way to make something that is easy and natural to me, to become the same thing for another person I'm playing music with.. and it became easy and natural to me without the knowledge you suggest I invest myself into. I'd love to learn to read.. committing to that? Hasn't quite panned out in my 25 years of playing stringed instruments and isn't going to help me streamline what I'm trying to convey to my friend.

The one request I've been making from the first response to this thread - Suggestions other than learning to read. And if that's all anyone reading this feels like they have to contribute, there is really just no point in them putting the effort into typing that post. The suggestion has been made already and I'm looking for different, and new responses, regarding ways people have creatively tackled this issue themselves.

It's cool man. I recall one time playing with a guy who didn't write anything down whatsoever. He knew the words to his songs and just played them. Very much from the folk/aural tradition (but very much not straight 4s!). All I could do was open my ears as wide as possible and do my best to keep up. Playing with that guy taught me about listening for song form, structure and the bigger picture, seeing the song in long form, rather than just a repeating series of identical verses and choruses. I learned how to listen out for airal cues and clues, for example, setting up a second instrumental, a double chorus, ending early or setting me up for a solo. Where is the going? I don't really know! All I'm trying to say is we spent a lot of time just playing through stuff, talking about it, trying things out. We made recordings of practice sessions (on cassette!) and I took those recordings home and crammed on them. I didn't write much down beyond basic section arrangements, keys and song names. Perhaps the best suggestion so far is the one about sitting across the table tapping out the rhythms...
 
It's cool man. I recall one time playing with a guy who didn't write anything down whatsoever. He knew the words to his songs and just played them. Very much from the folk/aural tradition (but very much not straight 4s!). All I could do was open my ears as wide as possible and do my best to keep up. Playing with that guy taught me about listening for song form, structure and the bigger picture, seeing the song in long form, rather than just a repeating series of identical verses and choruses. I learned how to listen out for airal cues and clues, for example, setting up a second instrumental, a double chorus, ending early or setting me up for a solo. Where is the going? I don't really know! All I'm trying to say is we spent a lot of time just playing through stuff, talking about it, trying things out. We made recordings of practice sessions (on cassette!) and I took those recordings home and crammed on them. I didn't write much down beyond basic section arrangements, keys and song names. Perhaps the best suggestion so far is the one about sitting across the table tapping out the rhythms...

Thank you for sharing that experience, and my apologies for getting short with you and @newwavefrank

This response is more up my alley and very appreciated.
 
but I can't seem to find the thing that makes that lightbulb go off in his head where he can really start getting creative with syncopation.

As with most things in life, we can only show others the switch to turn on the bulb, we can't flip it for them. That is for them to do. I think once the realization that the more they flip the switch, before long, that bulb will start to brighten. As far as any vids, methods, programs etc. I know of none other than actual experience. Keep introducing them to funk and pocket material. Obvious start with simpler funk stuff to jam on. As he starts getting a grasp on things, the curve will hopefully flatten and before you know it... groovin'.
 
The Anthony Wellington video is a good place to start. You really have to slow down and count the rythm to start learning how it works. You may already know this, but it needs to be taught to someone that "doesn't get it", so to speak. By counting, and doing rythm drills, it will become second nature.
Here's a video demonstration. Although this is drums, the same thing applies. Start at 42:45 to about 45:00. If you keep watching, at one point he plays through 15 measures before landing back on the one.
 
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From years of playing with others, I've learned that it's best just to focus on improving your own playing than trying to change somebody else's.

IME bandmates that try to tell everybody else how to do their job have big egos and their playing isn't quite as good as they think. Usually those bands don't last, or cycle through members. It doesn't work.

If you want your guitar buddy to play funkier, then take it upon yourself to try to lay down a more inspiring groove and help him feel more comfortable. Criticizing others does the opposite.

I have an issue with players that play too many fills, don't leave space, and lay down weak quarter note pulse. I've learned to just keep my mouth shut. Play simpler, leave more space, and see what happens. If the gig pays well, I'll continue, and if not, I don't waste my time.

The only sure way to change somebody else's playing is to pay them well. Everybody has their price. So if you are the bandleader, have at it. Otherwise, don't waste your energy trying to change the way other people play. It's pointless, doesn't work, causes frustration to all, and takes the joy out of playing for both the critic and the critiqued. Just focus on your own playing and finding new ways to bring taste and groove to whatever situation you find yourself in.
 
From years of playing with others, I've learned that it's best just to focus on improving your own playing than trying to change somebody else's.

IME bandmates that try to tell everybody else how to do their job have big egos and their playing isn't quite as good as they think. Usually those bands don't last, or cycle through members. It doesn't work.

If you want your guitar buddy to play funkier, then take it upon yourself to try to lay down a more inspiring groove and help him feel more comfortable. Criticizing others does the opposite.

I have an issue with players that play too many fills, don't leave space, and lay down weak quarter note pulse. I've learned to just keep my mouth shut. Play simpler, leave more space, and see what happens. If the gig pays well, I'll continue, and if not, I don't waste my time.

The only sure way to change somebody else's playing is to pay them well. Everybody has their price. So if you are the bandleader, have at it. Otherwise, don't waste your energy trying to change the way other people play. It's pointless, doesn't work, causes frustration to all, and takes the joy out of playing for both the critic and the critiqued. Just focus on your own playing and finding new ways to bring taste and groove to whatever situation you find yourself in.

Oddly enough, I criticize myself more than I do anybody when I listen to our recordings. And this isn't a paying gig, yet. Could be one day. But we're having fun making music. We're pretty lax. And my buddy does want to improve his rhythmic ability. He's new to the styles and concepts of the rhythmic elements we're hoping to create. He's very receptive of constructive criticism.. I try to be as courteous as I can about it. I called him the other day just to make sure he wasn't feeling any resentment at my attempts to encourage him. Giggled at me when I used the phrase "whiteboy rhythm". The drummer and I often talk about how we might try to get him to come out of his shell a bit. Part of the problem is largely that we're all adults.. people have families, kids, and jobs, and we only really get together as a group once a week while we develop our music, and we haven't been lately due to the state of the world.

2 or 3 days a week even would be a huge step up in making progress, and being able to share ideas and talk concepts over the internet should help to mitigate our sonic differences. I recently purchased a lower latency interface for the cause.

That's kind of my thing.. letting a rest roll out for half a measure, or a measure. I love putting gaps into my bass lines or guitar rhythms. There is no lack of willingness on his part.. just more a lack of time on all our parts. I pointed out a rhythm I wanted him to sync with me on but wasn't a couple months ago and he spent a day sending me recordings back until he got it right. And its that kind of attitude that has earned him a sense of loyalty from myself and his bandmates.

Largely a different situation than most working musicians would look for. It ain't about the pay, it ain't about being the best at anything. It's about having fun and creating something we can call our own. I'm just trying to help him learn to have more fun with rhythm in general. And he's showing progress. The internet sessions will likely help speed that up a bit, but in the meantime.. just fishing for ideas that might offer upping the tempo of that progress, since I can't say I'm honestly all that qualified to be much of a teacher.

The man kind of has this determination that says he'll jump through whatever hoops to be involved, and I try not to throw too many at him. This experience is not that of a professional working man's gig however. There's room to have patience and grow together. Oh.. and this project is largely my baby. I brought us together, and I'm putting my time in to making the best out of it.
 
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So lock the guy in a room and play him the Meters 24/7 for a few weeks.

Lol. Maybe worth a shot. I don't want him to actually play the Meters though that was just an analogy. The goal is the ability to get rhythmically creative akin to how the Meters did to create their music. And not necessarily at their skill level. But.. it might just take that.. throwing as much funk and other rhythmic music at him as I can until beats are the predominant thought in his mind. Slowly brainwashing him to think "How many different ways can I rearrange this rhythm and still sound good" vs "how many notes can I cram into this section of music with the pulse of the high-hat"
 
ok taking a risk here...... Learn some Grateful Dead tunes. This isnt going to get you funky, but might learn you to listen, leave space, get rhythmic in an organic way, react to the other players. Simple fun stuff like Eyes of the World, Scarlet Begonias, or a little more challenging like Help on the Way, The Eleven.
 
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ok taking a risk here...... Learn some Grateful Dead tunes. This isnt going to get you funky, but might learn you to listen, leave space, get rhythmic in an organic way, react to the other players. Simple fun stuff like Eyes of the World, Scarlet Begonias, or a little more challenging like Help on the Way, The Eleven.

Not a bad risk to take. Guitarist is definitely a bit of a dead fan. I've never been a huge fan but respect what they did in a large way. I've been linking him videos from Phish, MOE, discobiscuits. The jamband scene was and will be again pretty huge and is largely what I base my vision of an originals project on, with my own twists of course.

We've been building our ability to improv.. and it takes a certain amount of keeping things simple. Another concept I've been trying to bring home. We're getting better at it. So it's not like it's all bad by any means.
 
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The thread isn't titled "Should I learn to read music?"

It's titled "Rhythmic space" and there are other ways to approach that than staring at a sheet of paper.

I'll just offer this observation:

The reason folks are even bringing up standard musical notation as a response to your question(s) is because otherwise you'll be reinventing the wheel.

There already exists a solution to the problems you describe, and it's a solution that has evolved, developed, been vetted, tested, and codified over hundreds of years. It has a vastly comprehensive vocabulary that has nearly universally agreed-upon meanings, and it transcends most differences in upbringing, culture, preferences, and ideologies.

Arguably learning to use standard musical notation would not take longer than some hypothetical solution that avoids having to embrace that pedagogy; rather, it's a shortcut versus having to invent a new solution from square one.
 
without literacy, the best way to increase rhythmic vocabulary is learning by example.
hypothetical drummer learned rock songs, he only "speaks" rock rhythms.
to "speak" funk rhythms he must learn a lot of funk songs.

another approach might be to start learning rhythms that have actual names,
so you can communicate accurately.
Latin music is full of them: tresillo, clave, bombe and poncho... African drumming too.
Both musical cultures that are ancestors of funk.

ultimately , as Anthony Wellington points out , you need command of every subdivision down to the 16th note level, and to be able to accurately hear /imagine /play /rest / tie each of those 16 subdivisions on demand /at will.

There is an ancient, reliable and well known technique to achieve this level of rhythmic awareness
but we shall not speak of it here.
 
I'll just offer this observation:

The reason folks are even bringing up standard musical notation as a response to your question(s) is because otherwise you'll be reinventing the wheel.

There already exists a solution to the problems you describe, and it's a solution that has evolved, developed, been vetted, tested, and codified over hundreds of years. It has a vastly comprehensive vocabulary that has nearly universally agreed-upon meanings, and it transcends most differences in upbringing, culture, preferences, and ideologies.

Arguably learning to use standard musical notation would not take longer than some hypothetical solution that avoids having to embrace that pedagogy; rather, it's a shortcut versus having to invent a new solution from square one.

It's one thing, when someone while they have access to free public education, or even electives in private education gets these concepts drilled into their head, much like learning to read and write starting from kindergarten, using tried and tested practice regimen designed to help turn that language into something natural to them over the course of years. Even more incentive that you are being graded in your ability to perform such a task.

It's another when those opportunities are long gone and you've made do with what you've had over a course of decades which amounts to simply having a instrument in your hands and learning via a process of elimination, plus a few short lessons in theory amounting to having some knowledge of scales, intervals.'

You can preach all you want, that I should learn how to or be able to do something you can.. however not all circumstances are the same.

My circumstances, as well as MANY musicians I've met over the years, provides that we play music without such tools and being older, I'm not any better at learning new languages than I was while I was in highschool.. and barely learned/remember a lick of two semesters of Spanish, as I've never had cause to use it daily and in practice. I lived in Germany for three years, but can only say "Good day", "Egg", "yes", "no," "please" "thank you" or I can count to 10, maybe even twenty. Perhaps a few other select words.

For whatever reason, pursuing a self education in the written language of music doesn't work for me.

But I'm glad this thread has turned into a debate about whether or not I should learn to read/write rather than creative suggestions about how to help build someone's sense of rhythm without being able to do so.

You guys have fun with this thread.. to which half the responses don't seem to understand the reasoning of the original post.

Best wishes through the madness the world's going through.. I hope it's a big enough eye opener to the majority of the human species to embrace people, and their differences, rather than bicker about what one thinks is right.

There are probably a high number of players out there who get by without such a skill. Some of them probably pretty successful at it. Seems those people aren't the ones chiming in on the thread though.

I'm not here to debate this. Thanks everyone for their suggestions. But I'm unwatching the thread at this point. I'm done trying to explain myself and MY circumstances, which differ from many of your own. There is a phrase for understanding there is more than one single solution to a problem, it's called thinking outside of the box.

I won't post threads like this in the future. I'll just figure it out myself. Has been working for me thus far for my needs and tastes.
 
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