No, no breakthroughs, but if he's never listened to it, he'll never be able to play it convincingly.
Make him several playlists or CDs to listen to. Tell him to immerse himself in the music and come back and try again.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Rhythmic Space
- Thread starter Matty Koff
- Start date
No, no breakthroughs, but if he's never listened to it, he'll never be able to play it convincingly.
Make him several playlists or CDs to listen to. Tell him to immerse himself in the music and come back and try again.
One day the myth that being able to read and play from a score and being able to play and improvise with feeling, expression, soul, groove etc. are mutually exclusive will be busted. Until then, I'm out.
one day the myth will be busted that sight reading is a necessity to exploring musical concepts. Until then, Let me hold the door for you.
I appreciate that you tried to contribute. The sound track you provided, was more useful to me than the accompanying piece of sheet music. No hard feelings. But I didn't put "Limitations" in the beginning of the thread asking for people to address limitations. It was in search of answers that accepted them for what they are.Think a guitar rhythm that goes - Dunnanunnanunnnanunnanunnanunnanunnanunnanunnanunnanunna in straight 16ths(exaggeration)
vs
Like.. any given hip hop beat/song prior to the 21st century.
One makes you want to pull your hair out.
The other makes you want to move your body.
Or perhaps picture the guy dancing to a rhythm other than what's actually being played.
Nothing really to do with skin color.
An image comes to mind of Ronald Reagan clapping out of time while sitting in the audience listening to some performance, wish I could find a video of it.
Last edited:
I would suggest sitting down with the guy at a table and start doing simple rhythm exercises by clapping, tapping, etc. Have him tap out a straight rhythm and then show him the syncopation that you are trying to communicate.
All these dudes trying to tell you that you need to learn to read and write music so that you can teach your friend to read and write music are missing the point entirely.
All these dudes trying to tell you that you need to learn to read and write music so that you can teach your friend to read and write music are missing the point entirely.
Slade and Carl have pretty much answered your question. He, or anybody else, has to listen to the music. If you grow up listening to Afro-Cuban rhythms it becomes second nature. If you don't then a clave' is going to feel very awkward. If you got dropped into Cuba tomorrow you'd learn Spanish a lot faster than if you take classes. What you want him to learn takes time. He is a result of the music he listened to while he was growing up. So if he's willing to expand his rhythmic vocabulary he has to listen to, and play, different rhythms. Perhaps with you.
one day the myth will be busted that sight reading is a necessity to exploring musical concepts. Until then, Let me hold the door for you.
...
/QUOTE]
Actually I, along with plenty of others, are just as adept at aural communication (both ways) of musical ideas as we are at reading and writing. My experience over going on 40 years playing bass guitar and 8 years prior to that in classical training is that the written way is more reliable, more accurate and orders of magnitude faster. The process of turning the idea into actual music - the musicianship - is the same. Some can do it, some can't. The source of the idea - a score, a recording or someone going "do this then do that" or something from your inner ear - is irrelevant.
Man, I'm glad learning to read music has helped you out in your musical career.. but that's your own personal experience, sir. Mine is vastly different. I didn't nor will I ever have the opportunity for 8 years of classical training, which is likely where you were TAUGHT to read, via exercise after exercise, and it's probably been a long time for you where you've already had that ingrained into you, much like we were taught to read and write the English language.
I learned via a different method. Self teaching myself to read music at 38 years old is not the objective, and I have enough fun without it.
I'm not disputing that being able to sight read is a valuable skill. What I am disputing is that it at all applies to my situation. I'm pretty sure even without it, you and I could sit down and by ear alone produce something MUSICAL, maybe not the most technical, but still musical, and I'm asking you accept that at this time and stage in my life, sight reading is not a priority for me at this point and time, and way off base of the point of why I'm posting this thread. If I ever do get there, it will be on my own time, not my band's time. Otherwise, we mostly we make it work, there are just some things that could use a little nudge.
If sight reading is the only advice you have to offer, you've offered, and by all means can move on.
Last edited:
You seem like you have a lot of patience, and they seem friendly enough for you to take interest. That's a good start. Question is, how much time are you willing to spend? Where is their skill level? Are they beginners/starting out?
I also had several years of classical training before joining the middle school orchestra and band, before my 35 years as a rock and roll bassist. In every band that I have played in since 1985, I have found myself bridging the gap between the high-level players and the self-taught ones, helping one group understand what the other is trying to communicate.
Curiously, I have managed to do that for all these years without lecturing, badgering, hectoring anybody about what they need to know or throwing my hands up in exasperation over anybody else’s limitations. Weird, huh?
You need to leave space for others. Kindergarten kids are taught to 'take turns'.
Ask them how they feel about a person talking all the time at a party and not letting others get a word in edgewise. Leave space for others.
Even if you are playing a solo with no accompaniment, you have to leave a little space for people to digest what you are playing (assuming it's worth digesting).
Rhythm is silence also. Time continues if there is no sound. Trust yourself that if there is no sound, you'll be able to come in at the right place when it's your turn.
Check out the Victor Wooten metronome exercise.
Controlling time is controlling music.
Ask them how they feel about a person talking all the time at a party and not letting others get a word in edgewise. Leave space for others.
Even if you are playing a solo with no accompaniment, you have to leave a little space for people to digest what you are playing (assuming it's worth digesting).
Rhythm is silence also. Time continues if there is no sound. Trust yourself that if there is no sound, you'll be able to come in at the right place when it's your turn.
Check out the Victor Wooten metronome exercise.
Controlling time is controlling music.
He's been playing a long time, I'm the youngest guy in the group honestly. I want to say his skill level is more along the lines of intermediate. But his band situations in the past have mostly been straight rock and roll, or blues and his playing reflects that.
Ultimately, the number one goal of our project is just having fun. There's potential for more, but we aren't focused on becoming a huge success or making a living from it. I've sat down with several drummers where there was just no chemistry, and feel lucky to have found one that I gel with, that also comes with a studio in his basement. Our lead guitarist can play circles around anything we throw at him.
And frankly, we've all made improvements since we started playing together. I had a lot of rust to knock off going into this. So like I say it's not like I'm some virtuoso. We've all had some growing to do.
It's hard to get a creative project going in my area, unless you're keen on playing some form of metal/screamo. And I've met so many musicians over the years with huge egos, or serious drug/alcohol problems and a lack of desire to progress as a band. The guys I'm playing with now are some of the most respectful and courteous dudes I've ever met, and the rhythm guitarist in particular, has one of the most gung-ho attitudes I've ever seen. He takes my criticism like a champ, and slowly but surely, he's getting there. And we're going to be trying some online sessions for the time being with the state of the world, and when the world gets back to semi-normal, that will still be a valuable resource for sharing ideas and concepts without the tedious 45 minute drive to his house.
I'm basically willing to work with him as long as he continues to show his positive attitude towards the ordeal and continues showing improvement. Just looking for that one thing that turns the lightbulb on for him, so he can more confidently, and more musically, participate in the concept of sound we're looking to create. He's been wading through unfamiliar territory and I'm just trying to help him find a comfortable place in it.
Just reflecting the dialog. Quite franklyI don't care what anyone else does, but I object to being told that I can't groove, jam, improvise or play with feeling because I can also read, especially by someone that can't. I'm sure, as another who does both, you can see that?
Where did I ever imply anything personally about you and your ability dude? Get out of here already, man. You aren't helping a thing. You feeling butthurt right now is on you and you alone. Read my above post, I'm not too appreciative of your ego or condescending comments, or apparent inability to understand that IM NOT ASKING FOR THE ADVICE YOU ARE GIVING.
Last edited:
I always get a kick out of someone who asks for advice, admitting there is something they don't know, but then can so easily dismiss the advice given by those who do have that experience...If you don't want to take it, cool. But to argue that it won't help when you admittedly haven't tried it? How do you know? The fact that you don't understand why it would help means nothing. If people who have been there done that say it helps then maybe it does. Its like saying "how can i lose weight? But don't talk to me about diet or exercise..."
I read the advice, considered it, based on my personal experiences based on attempting to learn to read music, and decided that information wasn't useful to me. Do you have an actual contribution or do you otherwise have NO advice to offer other than "learn to read music?" Notice likes I've given in this thread.. where people provided suggestions given the limitations described. See how that works?
The thread isn't titled "Should I learn to read music?"
It's titled "Rhythmic space" and there are other ways to approach that than staring at a sheet of paper.
Do you actually have something useful to add to my thread?
It's funny, the author of a book I just purchased seems to believe I can be taught quite a bit without ever once looking at sheet music. But you guys.. i mean.. must know better than everyone else out there.. and understand every circumstance and stipulation of everybody else's life.
"Read music" GOT IT. Heard the first response. Asked for other answers.. please.. continue.
I don't know if it's useful, since you seem to dismiss everything you don't care for as useless... I personally don't read much so I don't know what that would help, but if someone who did learn that skill says it does, than how can I from my place of ignorance argue that they aren't right? personally I would have just said learn covers that make him play grooves outside his current understanding, but I think you also dismissed learning covers....
Actually you didn't. I misread your 'door open' comment and for that I apologise. You were holding the door for me to leave, not to come back once I'd gone away and worked out where you were coming from. Oh well, that's the internet, I guess. Good luck with your project.
I've dismissed reading music.. multiple times.. Got anything else for consideration other than derailing my thread further? no? Move on. Thanks.
Actually you didn't. I misread your 'door open' comment and for that I apologise. You were holding the door for me to leave, not to come back once I'd gone away and worked out where you were coming from. Oh well, that's the internet, I guess. Good luck with your project.
Look man, no grudges, no personal feelings of ill will towards you. I appreciate that you were willing to participate in my thread and offer your experience, even if it doesn't work for me. I'm sure you're very talented and have a ton of experience that I can't say I have. There's more than one way to skin a cat however. If you think of any others feel free. Starting a journey into reading sheet music is not the practical answer I'm looking for.. again why I described in the first place, that this is not a skill I have readily available to me, or the individual in question.
All I'm looking for, is a way to make something that is easy and natural to me, to become the same thing for another person I'm playing music with.. and it became easy and natural to me without the knowledge you suggest I invest myself into. I'd love to learn to read.. committing to that? Hasn't quite panned out in my 25 years of playing stringed instruments and isn't going to help me streamline what I'm trying to convey to my friend.
The one request I've been making from the first response to this thread - Suggestions other than learning to read. And if that's all anyone reading this feels like they have to contribute, there is really just no point in them putting the effort into typing that post. The suggestion has been made already and I'm looking for different, and new responses, regarding ways people have creatively tackled this issue themselves.
