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Rig Advice NEEDED (Larger to Smaller Rig?)

S

seakamp

Jun 30, 2005
518
6
Chicago
#1
Hi all. I'm at the old fork in the road. I'm deciding between a larger gigging rig and a smaller gigging rig....


My current large setup(Heavy):
CA9 > Eden Navigator > AccuGroove TRI210L

My possible small setup(Light):
Thunderfunk TBF550 > Schroeder 1210


At rehearsal I use my TRI210L and an old Sunn 2x15, needless to say, I'm easily heard. I don't see the need to haul the 15s around for gigs so I just don't do it, I figure 1 cab should do and I really shouldn't ever need a 2x15 to support me in the near indoor gigging future. Maybe for an outdoor show but I'd still rather not haul that thing around... even if it does sound amazing.

I love my TRI210L. It is hands down the favorite compact cabinet I've played through. As much as I enjoy my sound with it... I'm not sure it is MY sound. It is almost too refined for my tastes. I'd like a cabinet that would jump out a little more and punch me in the face. I'm sure I could EQ with the Navigator but I've having a difficult time doing this. Maybe its the fact that I'm trying to get MY sound AND cut through 2 guitarists, a drummer and a keyboard. I have no problem getting MY sound at a good volume by myself. Maybe its just me doing a bad job EQing. Maybe its the cabinet(doubtful but am open to all suggestions :cool: )

On top of problems cutting through clearly/jumping out in the mix a bit more... I'd really like to lose a bit of weight. If I were to switch from my current rig to the one I have in mind I'd lose about half the weight (45lbs or so). Would it be worth it for me to lose the CA9 and Navigator for the TFB550, considering both weight and wattage loss? I'm sort of assuming that the TFB550 will be powerful enough for anything I'll ever need club/bar wise. If the 500 watts isn't good enough I would think that I'd be going through a good enough PA and would only have to worry about monitoring myself with my amp.

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated. Especially from owners of any of the gear mentioned, even if you don't own any of the gear I have or want please chime in. I'm all ears and appreciate all input. :help:
 
#2
IMO you would love the smaller rig, especially if you feel your current rig is a little too 'polite'... the Schroeder will have a much different sound (not better or worse, but different)... more punch and a more aggressive upper mid and treble response IMO. It will also be louder and punch through more, IMO.
 
#4
I'm pretty much set on Keeping the CA9 for the band's PA, selling the Navigator, and getting the TFB550. Other than that I'm still somewhat lost.

It really is difficult to test out a cab to purchase. It will be one beast in the store, another beast at home, another beast at rehearsal, and another at a gig. This would be the reason why I like the talkbass forums so much. Even though sound opinions are completely objective... I think the opinions of others are almost as good as testing the cab out by itself in the store for yourself. From this site you get a good idea out of what to expect from the cab whereas in a store you can't get the total experience. I think testing the rig out along with getting great advice from people who use the stuff on a daily basis is a really good way to make sure you don't get into something you shouldn't have.

I'd also like to keep the cab I decide to use under 50lbs. The Bergie looks nice. From all of the reviews I have read on that cab it would seem like a good fit. I don't know if I'd only want to use a single 12 cab though. I'm somewhat partial to 10s and I don't have too much experience with 12s. The 1210 intrigues me because I'll get a bit rounder/fatter response with the 12 and the 10 will punch through tighter.
 
#5
seaKamp said:
It really is difficult to test out a cab to purchase. It will be one beast in the store, another beast at home, another beast at rehearsal, and another at a gig. This would be the reason why I like the talkbass forums so much. Even though sound opinions are completely objective... I think the opinions of others are almost as good as testing the cab out by itself in the store for yourself. From this site you get a good idea out of what to expect from the cab whereas in a store you can't get the total experience. I think testing the rig out along with getting great advice from people who use the stuff on a daily basis is a really good way to make sure you don't get into something you shouldn't have.

I'd also like to keep the cab I decide to use under 50lbs. The Bergie looks nice. From all of the reviews I have read on that cab it would seem like a good fit. I don't know if I'd only want to use a single 12 cab though. I'm somewhat partial to 10s and I don't have too much experience with 12s. The 1210 intrigues me because I'll get a bit rounder/fatter response with the 12 and the 10 will punch through tighter.
Click to expand...


+1 on testing things out in a store and being disappointed on a gig.

Your 1210 comment hits the nail on the head for me. I've never been a fan of cabs with 12's. The 1210 really does sound '4-10ish' to me. I've heard wonderful things about the Berg 112 (especially for DB), but I've never found a single 12 that could cut a moderately loud EB gig.
 
#6
KJung said:
+1 on testing things out in a store and being disappointed on a gig.

Your 1210 comment hits the nail on the head for me. I've never been a fan of cabs with 12's. The 1210 really does sound '4-10ish' to me. I've heard wonderful things about the Berg 112 (especially for DB), but I've never found a single 12 that could cut a moderately loud EB gig.
Click to expand...

I hear ya on that.
A suggestion, keep the Accugroove TR1210 to see how you like it with the Thunderfunk TBR550, then decide on a cabinet. Being that you want to keep the weight down on the cab, the 1210 sounds good, maybe consider for light cabs the Epifani 310UL, the 410UL is just over your 50lb limit, I like two single 112UL's stacked or just one for smaller gigs.
 
#7
MacGroove said:
I hear ya on that.
A suggestion, keep the Accugroove TR1210 to see how you like it with the Thunderfunk TBR550, then decide on a cabinet. Being that you want to keep the weight down on the cab, the 1210 sounds good, maybe consider for light cabs the Epifani 310UL, the 410UL is just over your 50lb limit, I like two single 112UL's stacked or just one for smaller gigs.
Click to expand...


I actually just recommended a 410UL to a TBer as a swap out for the Accugroove210. That 210 is very large and relatively heavy for a 210. The 410UL is not much bigger and virtually the same weight, and would put out massively more sound. However, the thread originator sounds like he's looking for small, and the 1210 is about as small as you can go and still cover most gigs (even loud ones) IMO.
 
#9
Try the T-Funk with the TRI 210 before you get rid of the TRI 210. I know what bass you are playing, and I think you would like the result just fine..... :D This is the best small rig I have ever had!!

Peace,

T
 
#11
I guess to me... any cab 55lbs and under is manageable. I would like lighter and more compact but if thats not the case then 55lbs and semi bulky isn't too bad. I think the TRI210L is probably the maximum size single cab that I'd want to really use. It is about 55lbs but it is easy to carry, the recessed handles almost make it seem light. I'd rather carry the TRI210L than my ampeg 2x10.

I have e-mailed Jorg a few questions and he has helped me a TON. What a great guy. I understand he is running a business but I'm not use to someone helping me out like he did. He has easily sent me 2+ e-mail pages worth of helpful information about his cabs and my situation. He has also told me about the Bass Club in Alsip, which carries Schroeder cabs so I can at least hear their voicing(emjazz thanks for the LAG info as well).

A big thanks thus far to everyone for their input. I've got a gig tomorrow but after that I'll be e-mailing/calling Dave Funk for some info about the TFB550 and possibly a trade for some gear. I can't wait to downsize :p Not completely downsizing too much really, just my personal rig... I'll toss my CA9 in our band's PA rack so I'll always get to schlep that millstone around. I mean that in a loving way of course.

I will definitely be trying out the TFunk with the TRI210L before I decide on anything else! Then I'll play it from there. I'll update in the coming days/weeks and give my impressions on my current setup vs the ones I will be trying out.

Hopefully I can be of as much help to others as you all have been to me once my hands have dirtied a bit more gear. :ninja:
 
#12
tommixx said:
Try the T-Funk with the TRI 210 before you get rid of the TRI 210. I know what bass you are playing, and I think you would like the result just fine..... :D This is the best small rig I have ever had!!

Peace,

T
Click to expand...

I agree. I think that the TF with the Accugroove 210 would be a killer rig. I've got an El Wappo Jr. and a TFB-420 and they sound awesome together. The TF amps are extremely plug and play and I think that you'd be pleasantly surprised in the ease of getting great usable sounds out of it. The extra headroom of the 550 should make it even better. Atlanta Bass Gallery carries both the Accugroove and Schroeder cabinets and all though I haven't made it up there to A/B the 2 brands, everyone that I know that has, chose the Accurgroove cabs hands down. IMO the difference in weight of the Schroeder 1210 and the Accugroove TRI 210 aren't significant enough to be the determining factor.
 
#13
JOME77 said:
I agree. I think that the TF with the Accugroove 210 would be a killer rig. I've got an El Wappo Jr. and a TFB-420 and they sound awesome together. The TF amps are extremely plug and play and I think that you'd be pleasantly surprised in the ease of getting great usable sounds out of it. The extra headroom of the 550 should make it even better. Atlanta Bass Gallery carries both the Accugroove and Schroeder cabinets and all though I haven't made it up there to A/B the 2 brands, everyone that I know that has, chose the Accurgroove cabs hands down. IMO the difference in weight of the Schroeder 1210 and the Accugroove TRI 210 aren't significant enough to be the determining factor.
Click to expand...

I think if you guys recommending staying with the tri210 go back to the originating post, the thread initiator was commenting that he didn't particularly like the 'refined' sound of the tri210. So, it's not a size issue we are trying to address in recommending other cabinets. I personally greatly prefer the sound of the Schroeder cabs to the Accugroove line, and also find the tri210 quite large and heavy, given that it's a 210 (it's the same weight as my Epi410UL and just a tad smaller!). Therefore, if the originator is looking for a less refined sound, the 1210 might really get him there in a package that is actually smaller and lighter.

Of course, if you like the Accugroove line, that's totally cool and you of course would suggest staying with the tri210. However, that's not what the thread originator is asking. Hence, the recommendations of the Epifani310UL and the agreement with the interest in the Schroeder1210.
 
#14
KJung said:
I think if you guys recommending staying with the tri210 go back to the originating post, the thread initiator was commenting that he didn't particularly like the 'refined' sound of the tri210. So, it's not a size issue we are trying to address in recommending other cabinets. I personally greatly prefer the sound of the Schroeder cabs to the Accugroove line, and also find the tri210 quite large and heavy, given that it's a 210 (it's the same weight as my Epi410UL and just a tad smaller!). Therefore, if the originator is looking for a less refined sound, the 1210 might really get him there in a package that is actually smaller and lighter.

Of course, if you like the Accugroove line, that's totally cool and you of course would suggest staying with the tri210. However, that's not what the thread originator is asking. Hence, the recommendations of the Epifani310UL and the agreement with the interest in the Schroeder1210.
Click to expand...

What I was trying to get across was... I can find MY sound with the TRI210L when I am not with the band. When I'm with the rest of the guys I seem to get lost a bit. I LOVE the sound I get from my TRI210L. I just have a hard time cutting through really well with MY sound with what the rest of the band does with me. It could be what I'm doing with the EQ, It could be the cab, it could be something else. I also might just have to abandon the sound I was going for to fit with the mix better.

What I was saying is that the TRI210L isn't aggressive enough by itself, and yes I know it isn't designed to be. So I should probably assume it is my fault for not being able to EQ this sucker and punch it through everyone else?

I'm open to any and all suggestions in regards to amps/cabs. I would personally lean more towards the WT-800B and the TFB550 in the amp department. In the cab arena... I'd like to find a way to stick with the TRI210L but I am open to all suggestions. I have been considering Bergies, Schroeders, Epifani and also keeping my AccuGroove. Like I said I am open to any and all suggestions that would fit the bill that I described(under 55lbs, somewhat compact, somewhat efficient, somewhat low... I realize this won't be a 2x15 stack). Yes that is vague but I guess it will allow me to get a bunch of suggestions and info about great gear to test out and I can have a great time with it :D
 
#15
seaKamp said:
What I was trying to get across was... I can find MY sound with the TRI210L when I am not with the band. When I'm with the rest of the guys I seem to get lost a bit. I LOVE the sound I get from my TRI210L. I just have a hard time cutting through really well with MY sound with what the rest of the band does with me. It could be what I'm doing with the EQ, It could be the cab, it could be something else. I also might just have to abandon the sound I was going for to fit with the mix better.

What I was saying is that the TRI210L isn't aggressive enough by itself, and yes I know it isn't designed to be. So I should probably assume it is my fault for not being able to EQ this sucker and punch it through everyone else?

I'm open to any and all suggestions in regards to amps/cabs. I would personally lean more towards the WT-800B and the TFB550 in the amp department. In the cab arena... I'd like to find a way to stick with the TRI210L but I am open to all suggestions. I have been considering Bergies, Schroeders, Epifani and also keeping my AccuGroove. Like I said I am open to any and all suggestions that would fit the bill that I described(under 55lbs, somewhat compact, somewhat efficient, somewhat low... I realize this won't be a 2x15 stack). Yes that is vague but I guess it will allow me to get a bunch of suggestions and info about great gear to test out and I can have a great time with it :D
Click to expand...


Good points.... but another way to think about it... you are experiencing what a lot of us have over the years... a piece of gear that sounds great 'solo' and then kind of disappears in a busy mix (again, not saying that's the case with Accugroove cabs in general, but more what you are hearing in your specific situation). That's a classic situation, and is especially true (IMO) with cabs and other equipment that attempt an 'audiophile' type sound. Overly aggressive EQing is never as good a solution as finding a bass/amp/cab that inherently has the 'sound you hear in your head'.

Same thing with some basses... that beautiful bass sound that you can get from a very high end mulit-lam three band EQ work of art sounds amazing in the store or living room. Put that sound in a mix with a couple of guitarist and you might be asking for trouble. On the other hand... some basses like Lakland's and Sadowsky type instruments that don't have that 'state of the art, refined audiophile type sound when solo'd just punch through and come alive in a live mix.

Again.... I'm only commenting on this stuff since you seem relatively unhappy with the sound of your current cab in a live situation... others obviously love the tri210. Have fun with your search :hyper:
 
#16
If weight is your complaint, I would NOT NOT NOT get rid of the Navigator. Obviously that's light, right? There are light power amps, especially class D amps that would pack plenty of punch and power without the weight. Crown K1 gives you 1500W bridged at 4 ohms, and is very lightweight. There are others mentioned on the board, I think Stewart maybe?

The navigator is a fantastically versatile preamp, you won't find anything better, IMO.

The main source of your sound's coloration is your cabinet. The main source of the weight of your rig is the cabinet.

Change the cab first. Its always better to change one thing at a time anyway, so you know what "fixed" your sound.

That's my 2c.

If you're not cutting through, boost the low mids. Boost some higher freqs. All other instruments are masking the mid and upper freqs of your bass. What sounds great alone becomes muddy, indistinct and boomy with the band. There's very little high freq content in your sound, it is easily overwhelmed by everything else.

The result of that, is what sounds good with the band, will sound too midrangey, too trebley when your are playing by yourself, by the way.

Randy
 
#17
steveksux said:
If you're not cutting through, boost the low mids. Boost some higher freqs. All other instruments are masking the mid and upper freqs of your bass. What sounds great alone becomes muddy, indistinct and boomy with the band. There's very little high freq content in your sound, it is easily overwhelmed by everything else.

The result of that, is what sounds good with the band, will sound too midrangey, too trebley when your are playing by yourself, by the way.

Randy
Click to expand...

+1 on these comments. It's amazing how much mids (and treble it that's your thing) it takes to get those frequencies to punch through in a live setting.... it's made even worse by the fact that the audience tends to absorb these frequencies more than the low end.... so the tone you need in a live situation (again.... talking about a full band at relatively loud volume) is probably as far away from what sounds good solo as you could imagine.

Regarding the Nav.... I agree, great piece of gear... and I know you are focusing on weight... but even witha class D amp, you are still looking at 4 rack spaces!!!!!... and a rack. Even with a Stewart 2.1, and rack, and a Nav, you are probably looking at 35 pounds (I would guess anyway). That's WAY different than the 15 pounds of the amazing sounding TF550.
 
#18
KJung said:
Regarding the Nav.... I agree, great piece of gear... and I know you are focusing on weight... but even witha class D amp, you are still looking at 4 rack spaces!!!!!... and a rack. Even with a Stewart 2.1, and rack, and a Nav, you are probably looking at 35 pounds (I would guess anyway). That's WAY different than the 15 pounds of the amazing sounding TF550.
Click to expand...
That is true... I like lots of power for headroom, and keep the power amp and pre in seperate racks (with wireless, tuner, power conditioner, backup pre and compressor), so its light for me, but not small by any means. 4sp rack for power amp, 8 space for preamp... :( But it is pretty light...
 
#19
steveksux said:
If weight is your complaint, I would NOT NOT NOT get rid of the Navigator. Obviously that's light, right? There are light power amps, especially class D amps that would pack plenty of punch and power without the weight. Crown K1 gives you 1500W bridged at 4 ohms, and is very lightweight. There are others mentioned on the board, I think Stewart maybe?
Click to expand...

The K series Crowns aren't really all that light. The K1 is 32 pounds, the K2 is 38. Ideally you need one rack space below and one above to let 'em breathe too, although I've gotten by without doing that in some situations. I bailed on my K2 when I found my QSC PLX 2402 to work at least as well (for me), and weigh 17 pounds less. YMMV, etc.

I did the iAmp 800/Schro 1210 thing for the last year or so. It would cover a fairly big gig no problem, although I usually get PA support for anything over 100-150 people anyway. I might get around to trying the TF one'a these days, but the PLX bridged into the Schroeder is a decent <90 pound solution for the moment. My benchmark is no one piece that weighs more than 50-60 pounds, and less is definitely better.

I roll my own preamps, can't offer much insight there, except to say that using a compressor can really help a pre/power amp rig to cut through in many cases.
 
#20
I guess I've never understood why so many TB'ers describe the Accugroove cabinets as a "polite" sounding cabinet. It simply reproduces the sound that you put into it without coloring up the sound. It actually responds much better to EQ than most traditional design cabinets. I think that seaKamp's problem with his sound is based around his amp/pre. The cabinet is simply reproducing the sound of his bass and amp. My El Wappo Jr. sounds very different when I play my Mesa Walkabout, TFB420 or Demeter/QSC through it. I chose which amp to use for a gig based on the style of music and sound that I'm going for.
 

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