Roger's take, in a nutshell

[Sadowsky]

Hey Roger; Illegetimi non Carborundum.

Those of us who’ve been around a bit treasure your work and efforts. Many thanks.

I had to Google this as I only know Carborundum as one of my sandpaper brands. Love this!!

 

[Ellery]

He charges more for some "tonewoods" right? And he's been a successful businessman for many decades? Kinda makes me think his opinion could only go one way on the matter.

Maybe the tonewoods his customers want cost him more?

 

[bassplayer9512]

I swapped Warmoth necks on my Warmoth body, one with an ebony board, the other with pau ferro. I definitely heard a difference although the neck wood was different too, maple and goncalo alves respectively.

I did the same and recorded my findings and there was no difference.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

I did the same and recorded my findings and there was no difference.

I've done it many times on multiple 4 and 5 strings basses. There was always a noticeable difference between necks in all of my personal experiences. The "sound of the instrument" is in the neck, in my experience.

So who's experience is more valid?

 

[fhm555]

Don’t know about the relative merits of tone wood, what I do know is there exists a small group of barn wood tele fanatics and another small group of pine body tele fanatics who both claim their body wood preference clearly produces the most twang possible from an electric instrument.
I’m not sure I understand the difference between tone and twang, but these two groups apparently do, and actively argue, occasionally coming to blows over which body produces the maximum amount of tonk for their honky.
In spite of their differences, if they run across 100 year old white pine barn beams, their eyes roll back in their heads and they begin to speak in tongues.

 

[david3821]

I personally 100 percent agree with Roger’s thoughts in his video. To me, the fingerboard does make the biggest difference in tone (assuming you are comparing the same instrument make, electronics, etc). This, is one of my biggest considerations when I buy an instrument. I could care less if 99% of people don’t hear a difference in my bass tone (i.e audience, band members, etc). It’s all about my experience and what inspires me to play my best.

If one doesn’t think fingerboards matter, simply buy whatever bass you like. Perhaps it’s a particular color, shape, sentimental value, etc which inspires you to play. I just don’t understand the cynical and sarcastic responses when someone who has built thousands and thousands of instruments is offering their thoughts.

 

[FRoss6788]

Hate to be a cynic but he makes more money from telling evryone about expensive woods than from say innovation or the electronics. He's one clever dude and u all fall for it..

Not only is Roger not that kind of a businessman, he's successful enough he doesn't need those skeevy tactics.

Cynic isn't what I'd call you for this kind of comment....

 

[Mister Magic]

Just as some will eat with their eyes, some will listen with their eyes.

I am baffled by those whose ears are so acute that they can hear tonal differences between ash and alder but cannot hear a ii-V-i progression.

I know a guy that claims he can hear tonal differences between painted and natural finishes on two otherwise identical amplified guitars. I don't find that any more or less unreasonable than some of the other tonewood claims I have heard.

There are numerous videos of people who have made guitars and basses out of cardboard, plywood, plastic, acrylic, concrete, etc. They all sound like the pickups that are installed in them.

Tonewood is a religion.

 

[bassplayer9512]

I've done it many times on multiple 4 and 5 strings basses. There was always a noticeable difference between necks in all of my personal experiences. The "sound of the instrument" is in the neck, in my experience.

So who's experience is more valid?

I'm happy you noticed a difference.

 

[tvbop]

Take it easy. Ive played my ass off for 45 years and the dance floors were rarely empty when I was laying it down. I've got nothing at all against Mr Sadowsky but healthy debate is where we need to be. And yes he is a very successful businessman and he's survived and flourished where so many haven't. All Im saying is dont be so easily swayed. Think. But also Ive learned a lot too. And in all those years and all those different basses Ive played the one thing that I thght made the difference was the thickness and shape of the neck... not the fingerboard material other than hard versus soft which we all know about. That's my experience.

 

[FRoss6788]

Take it easy. Ive played my ass off for 45 years and the dance floors were rarely empty when I was laying it down. I've got nothing at all against Mr Sadowsky but healthy debate is where we need to be. And yes he is a very successful businessman and he's survived and flourished where so many haven't. All Im saying is dont be so easily swayed. Think. But also Ive learned a lot too. And in all those years and all those different basses Ive played the one thing that I thght made the difference was the thickness and shape of the neck... not the fingerboard material other than hard versus soft which we all know about. That's my experience.

Good for you...

No debate is needed, at all, over a little video of a master builder's opinions of fingerboard wood. None at all. He's not trying to sway ANYBODY.

Please tell me, in that video, where did he give an opinion of what he preferred or what he thought was better. Just different flavors.

He's an expert, you are not, and in your comment you were impugning his character.

Not cool.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

If you actually listen to what he says, he emphasizes that in his experience the fingerboard material makes the most difference to the sound - rosewood, or maple, generally. Kinda makes me think he's talking about his actual experience, given that there's not a lot of upcharge either way.

The point of saying that he’s not an objective observer is not necessarily to say that he makes more money if you choose one wood or another - part of it is just that there’s a mystique around high-end basses that is partly centred around the idea that these manufacturers are able to get particular qualities out of basses due to their ability to pick special pieces of wood or combinations of woods. The buyer then is buying the idea that the manufacturer has imparted the bass with those qualities through their expertise. I have no doubt that Roger Sadowsky, Mike Tobias etc believe what they say, but for those of us listening critically, we might say that there is a significant disincentive for them to believe or profess otherwise. This doesn’t make them wrong necessarily but it should inform how we listen to them, just like any other source that has an inherent bias - for example, if a dairy farmer is telling us that milk is good for us compared with a doctor saying the same thing (for the record, I think milk is great).

If, in a market that is attuned to valuing the mystique around tonewood, Sadowsky basses actually sound great mostly because of their great preamp rather than their wood, that idea has far less power in a marketing sense than the idea that they sound how they do because of wood.

 

[Altitude]

There is much truth to this. Here in Seattle, the difference in crust between Tutta Bella (best in town, imho, a Neopolitan style), and everywhere else is night and day.

That place in Wallingford had amazing crust. I think it started out as My Brother’s in the 90s but later sold. The story I heard was that the owner had tested and tasted crust from dozens of famous pizza joints in all the pizza towns to come up with his recipe.

 

[gln1955]

Don’t know about the relative merits of tone wood, what I do know is there exists a small group of barn wood tele fanatics and another small group of pine body tele fanatics who both claim their body wood preference clearly produces the most twang possible from an electric instrument.
I’m not sure I understand the difference between tone and twang, but these two groups apparently do, and actively argue, occasionally coming to blows over which body produces the maximum amount of tonk for their honky.
In spite of their differences, if they run across 100 year old white pine barn beams, their eyes roll back in their heads and they begin to speak in tongues.

Avoid twangwood wars.

One group obviously owns a big old barn and is just wanting to sell their wood.

 

[TyBo]

Just as some will eat with their eyes, some will listen with their eyes.

I am baffled by those whose ears are so acute that they can hear tonal differences between ash and alder but cannot hear a ii-V-i progression.

I know a guy that claims he can hear tonal differences between painted and natural finishes on two otherwise identical amplified guitars. I don't find that any more or less unreasonable than some of the other tonewood claims I have heard.

There are numerous videos of people who have made guitars and basses out of cardboard, plywood, plastic, acrylic, concrete, etc. They all sound like the pickups that are installed in them.

Tonewood is a religion.

So did you actually watch the video? You seem to be responding to a lot of other things or people, more so than what was actually said

 

[Altitude]

I think pickup configuration and placement have the most effect, but I’ve had instruments that were similar apart from the woods involved and they did sound materially different.

Perhaps obviously, I’d think wood density and hardness are the main levers, and varying wood species tend to differentiate in those areas but specimens vary within a species.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

So did you actually watch the video? You seem to be responding to a lot of other things or people, more so than what was actually said

I think a lot of the commenters in this thread didn't watch the video. Typical Talkbass, though. Speak first, consider the context later. Or don't.

 

[FRoss6788]

Electronics were not relevant to the video, it was simply his take on tonewood.

He believes fingerboard material has a greater influence on tone than the body wood, on HIS BASSES.

 

[TyBo]

The point of saying that he’s not an objective observer is not necessarily to say that he makes more money if you choose one wood or another - part of it is just that there’s a mystique around high-end basses that is partly centred around the idea that these manufacturers are able to get particular qualities out of basses due to their ability to pick special pieces of wood or combinations of woods. The buyer then is buying the idea that the manufacturer has imparted the bass with those qualities through their expertise. I have no doubt that Roger Sadowsky, Mike Tobias etc believe what they say, but for those of us listening critically, we might say that there is a significant disincentive for them to believe or profess otherwise. This doesn’t make them wrong necessarily but it should inform how we listen to them, just like any other source that has an inherent bias - for example, if a dairy farmer is telling us that milk is good for us compared with a doctor saying the same thing (for the record, I think milk is great).

If, in a market that is attuned to valuing the mystique around tonewood, Sadowsky basses actually sound great mostly because of their great preamp rather than their wood, that idea has far less power in a marketing sense than the idea that they sound how they do because of wood.

Or, it could be that building thousands of basses over the course of decades affords the opportunity to learn first hand what the effect of various standard wood types have on the sound. Not a lot of mystique in what Sadowsky says here, just a basic description of his experience, primarily, with a couple different fingerboard types.

But you're free to ignore this and, as Roger says himself, use your own ears and play what you like.

 

[WG Plum]

That place in Wallingford had amazing crust. I think it started out as My Brother’s in the 90s but later sold. The story I heard was that the owner had tested and tasted crust from dozens of famous pizza joints in all the pizza towns to come up with his recipe.

Tutta Bella went through a process with a group in Italy to be designated as Neopolitan pizza, I believe. They're legit. Definitely the best pizza since I visited Italy.