Roger's take, in a nutshell

[FRoss6788]

I REALLY don't understand why folks find anything controversial in Roger's video, at all.

He's pretty clear that it's his opinion on how fingerboard material affects his basses based on his experience building 8000 basses.

Not trying to sell anything to anyone.

Geez....

 

[jnewmark]

No dog in this fight, but imagine if Leo Fender was still alive, and a member of TalkBass, and started talking about tone woods....

 

[WRM]

That’s not the point though. It’s more about the differences between two examples of the same model. A personal experience for the owner. It may not come through the speakers with a full band in that much detail but it makes a difference to the player of that instrument. It shapes the vibe of the bass in a big way. Let somebody have a year with a rosewood board and then suddenly replace it with the same bass except maple, and they would notice a stark difference in the sound, guaranteed.

The differences between my maple and rosewood P bass are plenty large enough to warrant owning both, especially with a string choice that complements either tone.

That is the point, though. If we are going to make generalizations about fretboard wood affecting tone, it should not matter what bass we are talking about - it should affect all basses universally.

I whole-heartedly agree with his view. Including - the instruments that sound the best overall, also sound the best acoustically (unplugged). He mentions this around the 1:10 mark in the video.

Electric guitars/basses resonate. Walk into a music store and play two or more basses, unplugged. There will be a difference in tone and when the bass is unplugged, the electronics have no influence. Only the wood.

Quoted to note the "unplugged" thought, which I had also considered. If played acoustically, it would remove the electronic variablility.

Regardless of how Roger's insight is digested by the TalkBass family, we should pause to appreciate a builder of his stature being willing to take the time to repeatedly share his experiences, respond to the average Joe's questions and clear up all the bad intel floating around. How many other elite builders do this? Roger, I thank you.

Think about it, folks -- Roger doesn't need to post here. He's been in the upper echelon of bass building for many years. For anyone to say his posts are only a method to sell certain species of wood is laughable. In reality, he worked his butt off and created a brand of instruments that sound and play wonderful and are recognized as such across the planet.

I'll let the fact that many ads for high-end basses on this site include some sort of wording that reads, "Will trade for Sadowsky NYC" speak for itself.

Again, I respect Roger's accomplishments and have nothing personal against him. It was simply an opportunity to delve into the "tonewood" debate.

After the sound goes from my brain until it comes out the speaker, everything has an effect on the result. Do the types of wood make a difference? Probably. My query, I guess, is how much of that tone is changed by all the variables in the signal chain, to make the difference in wood that noticeable? It would be apparent in a purely acoustic setting, I feel, but after a pedalboard that has, let's say 6 pedals on it, plus the amp/cab/speakers, how much of that pristine tone (from the wood) is really that apparent?

I don't take any strong stand on one side of the debate the other.

My point exactly - it's the "how much" that I have issues with. Roger admitted that though he believes that fretboard material "contributes" to the tone, it is not a "primary" contributor. So, where does it fall on the list - second, third, fourth, tenth, etc.?... That's why I, personally, believe this is an exercise in futility/folly - it's relatively insignificant in the end product.

Thanks,

(Someone who hasn't built 80,000 basses and can therefore be ignored as "having no standing" in the discussion.)

 

[WI Short Scaler]

I have no real dog in the fight as to Roger's opinion. I have no real intent on buying another bass and even if I did I wouldn't buy one that expensive.

But in my experience, putting maple board necks on my two parts-basses with all else equal did give a brighter and snappier tone that I really like. So I'd agree with him on his "maple vs rosewood" statements.

 

[Altitude]

Tutta Bella went through a process with a group in Italy to be designated as Neopolitan pizza, I believe. They're legit. Definitely the best pizza since I visited Italy.

I’ll check it out next time I’m up there. Driving my daughter back up to UW in September.

 

[TyBo]

That is the point, though. If we are going to make generalizations about fretboard wood affecting tone, it should not matter what bass we are talking about - it should affect all basses universally.


Quoted to note the "unplugged" thought, which I had also considered. If played acoustically, it would remove the electronic variablility.


Again, I respect Roger's accomplishments and have nothing personal against him. It was simply an opportunity to delve into the "tonewood" debate.


My point exactly - it's the "how much" that I have issues with. Roger admitted that though he believes that fretboard material "contributes" to the tone, it is not a "primary" contributor. So, where does it fall on the list - second, third, fourth, tenth, etc.?... That's why I, personally, believe this is an exercise in futility/folly - it's relatively insignificant in the end product.

Thanks,

(Someone who hasn't built 80,000 basses and can therefore be ignored as "having no standing" in the discussion.)

Most of what you're saying here has already been responded to. Sadowsky's point about comparing, let's say, fretboard material on instruments that are otherwise identical, is that that's where the difference will be most discernable. Start to throw in other variables and confounding factors enter in. This strikes me as neither controversial nor hard to understand.

Your feeling is that an effect from wood type "should" be more pronounced than this. So that's your opinion on it and that's OK. And of course, feel free to use your own ears and play what you like.

 

[WG Plum]

I’ll check it out next time I’m up there. Driving my daughter back up to UW in September.

Awesome! They have the location in Wallingford and another in Columbia City. I may have to take my son there tomorrow, it's been a couple of months since we last went.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Everyone on the internet is an "expert".

I prefer my experts to have practical experience of the subject.

Go Roger.

Evidence from experiments is the gold standard. It's difficult when perception of sound is subjective and it's difficult to pluck a guitar exactly the same twice, even with a rig. At least with CDs and high bit rate mp3s you can record the audio from both and compare directly. But double-blind studies are reasonable for determining tonal qualities to see if people can tell the difference let alone what they prefer. I'm no longer a good candidate for telling the difference as I can hear anything above 15kHz these days, but my wife can hear dog whistles so I'd trust her and others like her (people who are part bat).

 

[WRM]

Your feeling is that an effect from wood type "should" be more pronounced than this. So that's your opinion on it and that's OK. And of course, feel free to use your own ears and play what you like.

My "feeling" is that "tonewood" does NOT significantly matter, in the end product. I'm not the one making the claim that it does....

 

[azureblue]

I always found the neck wood to have the largest impact, compared to fingerboard or body. I theorize it has to do with the hardness and properties of the wood - BUT, every wood is different, bc it comes from living trees. You can make general statements about pine being soft and ebony being hard, but there will be variances within the species, so one piece of ebony might sound different than another.

Ultimately, for higher end instruments, an exotic wood just typically looks better, and that is what you are paying for.

For Sure - play a bass with a graphite neck, or Aluminum. As far as woods, I think it has more to do with fretboard wood density, and neck wood resonance.

 

[57pbass]

I can say this with 100% certainty.. the Brazilian Rosewood boards on my NYC basses have a unique sound.
Note clarity and articulation with added sustain… the audience won’t hear this but along with the way Roger’s instruments set up will always get me to the comfort level I desire when doing shows.

I live near the shop and have the luxury of visiting a few times a year. Since Roger has had first hand experiences with many of the pro bass players i listen to .. his opinions are invaluable to me.

I’ve been a customer since the early 90’s and he has never once try to hard sell me on anything ..he will make sure I am aware of the available options if he thinks I need to know.

He’s a world class builder and person.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

My "feeling" is that "tonewood" does NOT significantly matter, in the end product. I'm not the one making the claim that it does....

In my experience the major concerns about body wood for me are whether it looks nice, is too heavy or dents. For neck wood - is it stable, does it feel nice and look nice. I've not noticed significant or consistent tone differences. I like rosewood best as although maple looks clean you have to actually clean it to keep it that way. If someone could invent self cleaning maple I'd be happy and I'd also also change all my kitchen counter tops to it.

 

[Mike Vee]

what about unfinished vs heavy poly coated maple?

 

[TyBo]

My "feeling" is that "tonewood" does NOT significantly matter, in the end product. I'm not the one making the claim that it does....

Yes, I think that's understood.

 

[sleeplessknight]

I think Jim Lil did a pretty decent discussion on this:

 

[Rib 13]

Guitars and basses need to be judged on an individual case-by-case basis. From cheap to expensive, two individual basses couldve been made back to back and one will sound great while the other sounds like azz....thats why threads like this go on and on because they are making blanket statements

 

[Windreaper]

Can't see what is controversial about Roger's statement. If you are limited to a 60s style JB platform, fingerboard wood might be a tonal variable you care about.

That said, I own full custom instruments from two different luthiers and not once were the words tone and wood uttered in the same sentence during the process. Just an anecdote, but I used to need multiple of the same production model, and keeping the setup consistent between the samples made more of a difference than anything else. At a point in time I'd even buy CTS pots in bulk and use the ones closest to spec...

 

[TyBo]

I think Jim Lil did a pretty decent discussion on this:

Several threads here at TB on this. Look to those for commentary.

 

[MojoPin]

Hmmmm...is there a point to your post looming somewhere on the horizon?

Do you EVER just answer a question or do you constantly just troll?

Absolutely not objective, and I agree. I'd like to see him identify fretboard woods by playing them blindfolded. Basses that he is not familiar with/played before, P's/J's/PJs/, using a statistical representative sample (20+).

It doesn't have to be Roger, I'd like to see anyone ID tonewoods blindfolded (hint) - "Show me".

I think it really comes down to people that know and can hear the difference just don't care to prove anything to those that don't. I mean alot of people are presented clear cut evidence that they still don't believe so why even go out on a limb to convince some rando in a forum somewhere when you've got basses to make or gear to design?

Excellent suggestion. I actually watched it before you assumed I didn't. I'm still unconvinced.

Well that's because you want to be unconvinced or just can't hear the differences yourself. Either way, the people that can hear the difference know he's not being a an upcharge shill like you suggested in your first post and YES you did suggest that.

 

[MikeBass]

He charges more for some "tonewoods" right? And he's been a successful businessman for many decades? Kinda makes me think his opinion could only go one way on the matter.

Roger Sadowsky is one of the most honest and down to earth person in this whole industry.

I seriously doubt his comments are motivated by his bottom line.
In fact, I’d say they are anything but motivated by selling his basses.