Double Bass SAD! Ken Smith Fiasco!!!

[rprowse]

Don't worry...I'm Audi (really this time, promise). I'll leave drurb to drone alone. Back to Flea patrol on the slab side...

Well, I know that I really just write a bit of nonsense ( in this discussion) but...
If I were to be serious for a minute, 'drurb' sounds like a clear thinker and a nice chap. I'll side with him.
Back to my practice.
Gosh, if only the treads on bass playing moved this fast!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

..and with that, he left.

Indeed.

 

[Chasarms]

Darn, sucked in again...

You do realize that you can be written up for your post, right?

You didn't obscure EVERY LETTER in your expletive. Look at my profile. I've been written up TWICE by an over-zealous mod for THE EXACT SAME THING YOU JUST DID.

Now, someone please tell me again how my points are irrelevant to why no serious professionals wanna stay here and chat with anyone anymore...please.

..and with that, he left.

I am pretty sure it is OK to call someone an anthole on American TV. It should be OK here.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Did I just walk over into the wrong forum? It does say "Double Bass Forums" at the top does it not?


Ahh yes, the KS/Moderator-bashing clusterf*** debacle. How the gift keeps on giving! It seems that most gifted folks are also highly opinionated at the same time. Isn't this how Ray Parker got turned off as well? In a similar fashion? Personally, I don't see how you guys can get so far without being thick skinned - but then again, maybe you just had your fill.

Anyways, I love how alot of people assume what had happened by reading what's left of history. I highly suggest some of you newcomers refrain from accusing anybody from saying who did what, as you were not there and didn't see the events unfold. Ken Smith ain't no demon, but he ain't no saint either. The only way you'd know part of the truth is if the thread Ken started was brought back from being deleted, and only then you would know part of the story. I don't even know exactly what went on in every detail and even then I'm hesitant to place blame on anyone. I read TB almost constantly and it's hard to catch everything because there were so many issues going on in several threads all at the same time.

I've sniped (albeit jokingly) at Ken a couple times, and once even apologized to him for something way back. I yanked his chain one last time before he split, but I don't think what I said was the cause. If it was me, mea culpa - Sorry Ken! But in his last interactions, he seemed to be very light skinned for one who often dishes it out (whether he knows it or not). It's all very convoluted still. To leave or condemn TB because of what you read that's left in the forums, is a little presumptious, IMO. You're only seeing about 20% of what's left, if not less if you're late to the game.

Sorry Paully, I love ya and understand that you want to stand by your friend but I'm not sure what you'll accomplish by punishing everybody else in the process. You've always been a shining example of how to act in relating to everyone as an expert (pet peeves about headstocks and fretboards aside ). Personally, I don't think you can teach a lesson to the users of this forum by deleting your posts and taking off, especially when most of us have seen Ken be both an instigator as well as a victim. I dunno.

Anyways, we're almost to 100 posts in one day! Here's my contribution!

EDIT: I took too long to post! We hit 100! w00t!

 

[rprowse]

A MESSAGE FROM KEN SMITH, CHANNELLED THROUGH RPROWSE
"Hi this is Ken Smith. I've chosen rprowse (Richard) as a medium, to pass on my latest thoughts, because he doesn't seem too bright and this means that he is easier to control.
I watched this thread from my office and have been a little alarmed at how quickly it has grown. Because I have inhabited the body of a 'down under bassist', I feel inclined to exclamate 'Crickey!'
Hey, we all have egos. We all want to feel important and successful, especially as we clock up a few years. Who's to say 'I play better than you' or 'you're too green to understand this'? Often the great players arise from unusual places (probably not NZ.. rprowse is there, after all) and achieve a lot while they are still babies. Genius is not about experience.
Well, I guess I'm just trying to say that I might have over reacted just a little. You see, I have a lot of experience in the bass field and, I guess, it can be a bit of a crutch for my ego. Sorry moderators. You guys are a pretty good bunch. I just didn't want to back down. Hey, and if I've offended anyone, sorry. In the vastness of the Universe our individual talents are dwarfed to next to nothing. But, hey, I'm getting a bit gooey! So, no hard feelings. Hey, this guy has got some crazy bass ideas in his head! It'll be good to get out.
Ciao
Ken".

 

[Phil Smith]

I think you folks were pretty lucky to have Ken Smith posting here sharing information and adding more credibility to the board for free which i'm sure in some part translated into revenue for the board. Nothing lasts forever and I'm sure Ken Smith has more than enough stuff to do than post here. So I guess I'm saying, don't lament that he's not here, think more about how lucky you were that he was ever here at all.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I guess the thing I don't get about this whole mess is how someone can get all worked up about digitized alphanumeric responses on a computer screen.

Sure, some of us post by our real names, others don't. But in the end, are there people out there really losing sleep over the fact that BassMasterX0$3Z called them a putz on a web forum? Come on, people. Lighten up.

I have a "virtual" knowledge of those with real identities. You can google names, read bios, listen to work, etc. Those without, you can't. So what. In the end if someone real or virtual is an a**hole, then they are labeled as such.

Life's too short. Ignore the a**holes, glean what you can from those that have something meaningful to say, and read the rest with whatever perspective you choose. You might get a laugh, you might roll your eyes, you might just move on the the next post.

That's exactly what I was saying - I just get a laugh from some rude comments and take what I can in terms of knowledge etc.

I sort of agree with Phil - but I do think it's a shame that TB keeps losing people - maybe it's a fault of democracy - where everybody has a vote regardless of their knowledge/experience?

 

[Mike Dimin]

Let me put this a different way - hopefully, in person (not on TV, not is some virtual world, but in real flesh and blood) you speak differently with your peers than you do with your teachers, your clergy, your boss. Perhaps it is out of respect or reverence. Perhaps it is out of social grace or even fear. Hopefully that person has earned that respect.

There are some might feel that internet forums become the great equalizer. A place where they can "take down" this person, where they somehow feel that there opinion carries equal weight or, more often, a place where there total lack of self esteem and inadequacies, comes out by the only way they know - to try to bring down others.

I cannot count the number of times that I have seen it here. It comes from the subtle to the sublime. I have a thick skin. I took much of it as an Ask The Pro. One day I said enough. I still post but much less than I used to and I never offer musical advice. I monitor what is said about the company I work for and other industry issues. If you know better than me, if you know more than Jeff Berlin, if you know more then Ken Smith - please let me know where I can find you because you must be one mutherf@##@ing player and I NEED to hear you and worship at your feet

Mike

 

[PB+J]

I sort of agree with Phil - but I do think it's a shame that TB keeps losing people - maybe it's a fault of democracy - where everybody has a vote regardless of their knowledge/experience?

Yes--maybe we should have a test, where only those who have knowledge and experience can post? Maybe a word/experience ratio could be established? The more knowledge and experience you have, the more you can say. You could limit the number of questions you let the inexperienced ask, and as they get more experienced, they can ask more questions. Of course they won't need to, because now they'd be knowledgeable and experienced, but at least we'd be spared the awful spectacle of the inexperienced posting their opinions, or, even worse, believing they're entitled to them.

 

[PB+J]

Mike, this is not meant in an aggressive way, but what does "know better" mean exactly? I don't want to be a professional musician--I don't want to tour, I don't want a record contract, i don't want want to be an endorser. Nothing at all against people who DO want that, and I have nothing but respect for the discipline and dedication and talent required to get that, but I have a great career in my day job and I play music because I love it. I take it very seriously, and practice very hard, but at 47 all I'll ever be is a local guy who does gigs--which is fine by me--I LIKE that.

It's not always clear to me that, say, Jeff Berlin or Ken telling me I'll never be a REAL musician unless I can sight read in the orchestra pit or step into a gig with Yes does much good except to say "you're not qualified to speak." I don't want to be a "real musician"--I want to play music as well as I can. Does that make sense? You're justifiably proud of your hard-won status as a professional. But I think there are a fair number of guys like me on the board, who play as what might be called an avocation rather than a vocation. Jeff Berlin used to always act as if everyone was a wanna-be---as if every poster wanted to be him and he was doing everyone a favor with every opinion. I can understand your complaint about people trying to "take down" a famous name. But the "taking down" thing works both ways--Ken sometimes liked to "take down" people who didn't have his career experience.

There are a lot of people here with a lot of different objectives and experiences, which IMHO is what makes it great. I'm sorry if anyone leaves, except guys who just like to troll. I'd hate to see you leave. I just want to suggest that there's not one model of participant here.

 

[Stan Haskins]

Hey, PB& J -

I don't think anyone is making a judgement about your choices, or your right to your opinion, or anything like that. You obviously have as much a right to your opinion as anyone else.

And where did this "begging Ken to come back" thing start, DRURB? I don't recall ever begging him to come back, and I also don't recall anyone else doing that. I do recall some people (self included) saying we miss his input. I think we also have noticed a "change of tone" since he left. Some of you obviously think it's better. I do not. Again, we're both entitled to our opinion, right?

Hey, Richard Proust - if you leave, there'll be no one left here with a sense of humor At All

Let's all beg rprouse to come back - - PLEASE, COME BACK RICHARD

btw, shouldn't we be done with this and just start a TBDB ongoing "soap opera" forum - great daytime entertainment.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

If you know better than me, if you know more than Jeff Berlin, if you know more then Ken Smith - please let me know where I can find you because you must be one mutherf@##@ing player and I NEED to hear you and worship at your feet

I hope nobody minds if I take my moderator hat off for one moment and say something I would have said even if I didn't have that exalted status.

The situation we're talking about -- and once again, it's clear that folks don't mind riffing on this thing even though the facts have long since left the building -- had nothing to do with who said what to whom. For all the parties involved, the problem was how things were said.

This is a discussion forum. Sure we talk about bass and building basses and all things bass, but we aren't actually doing those things. We're talking about them. Words are used. The experience of TalkBass since its inception -- and of every other board out there on the net -- is that anybody can get themselves into trouble, or start some kind of big bush fire, simply by how they employ their words. Big people, little people, people people -- everyone bleeds and everyone carries a knife, whether they know it or not. Any pro with accomplishments in the field of bass can undermine his authority in just a few posts if his skill with words doesn't exactly match up to the actual accomplishment in the "real" world.

My vote is for civilization. Do unto others, etc. What we have here is virtual community and real-time, real life peer review. Tremendously powerful tools.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yes--maybe we should have a test, where only those who have knowledge and experience can post?

No - the argument is that maybe people with more knowledge and experience should be given a bit more respect and maybe a bit more leeway...?

Maybe a word/experience ratio could be established? The more knowledge and experience you have, the more you can say. You could limit the number of questions you let the inexperienced ask, and as they get more experienced, they can ask more questions. Of course they won't need to, because now they'd be knowledgeable and experienced, but at least we'd be spared the awful spectacle of the inexperienced posting their opinions, or, even worse, believing they're entitled to them.

Well - now the sarcasm is in danger of obscuring the argument - but at the last you come back to an important point!

Does the opinion of an inexperienced person have equal weight to soembody who has been at the top of their profession for decades - surely this is wrong in every sense!!??

So - if you were looking for bass playing or building advice/lessons/teacher in the real world - you wouldn't go to an inexperienced person and say : "well their opinion is as valid as anybody elses' - so I have no need to pay top dollar"!!??

So why so we do this in cyberspace - why is somebody who knows nothing about the subject allowed to have equal weight on their opinion as the person at the top of their profession - it makes no sense!!

 

[Mike Dimin]

Mike, this is not meant in an aggressive way, but what does "know better" mean exactly? I don't want to be a professional musician--I don't want to tour, I don't want a record contract, i don't want want to be an endorser. Nothing at all against people who DO want that, and I have nothing but respect for the discipline and dedication and talent required to get that, but I have a great career in my day job and I play music because I love it. I take it very seriously, and practice very hard, but at 47 all I'll ever be is a local guy who does gigs--which is fine by me--I LIKE that.

It's not always clear to me that, say, Jeff Berlin or Ken telling me I'll never be a REAL musician unless I can sight read in the orchestra pit or step into a gig with Yes does much good except to say "you're not qualified to speak." I don't want to be a "real musician"--I want to play music as well as I can. Does that make sense? You're justifiably proud of your hard-won status as a professional. But I think there are a fair number of guys like me on the board, who play as what might be called an avocation rather than a vocation. Jeff Berlin used to always act as if everyone was a wanna-be---as if every poster wanted to be him and he was doing everyone a favor with every opinion. I can understand your complaint about people trying to "take down" a famous name. But the "taking down" thing works both ways--Ken sometimes liked to "take down" people who didn't have his career experience.

There are a lot of people here with a lot of different objectives and experiences, which IMHO is what makes it great. I'm sorry if anyone leaves, except guys who just like to troll. I'd hate to see you leave. I just want to suggest that there's not one model of participant here.

I basically agree with what you say. I can see your point that perhaps Jeff treated everyone as if they aspired to be a pro .. but let's turn it around a bit. Your 47 (so am I) - I imagine that you have earned a level of professionalism and respect in what you do. So when some newbie comes along, just hired, just out of school (please excuse as I do not know what you do for a living) and basically states that you know jack, your ways don't work, that he knows it all. He tells all the co-worker, that will listen (and those that won't) that you're a "has been", a dinosaur. Your ways are outmoded and the way to do it is his way. That;s kind of the same thing. Hopefully, in the real world, someone comes along and has a new way, a bettter way, you and I will be able to listen to that, incorporate it into our profession and give credit where it is due. But we both know that it is much harder than that.

One thing that makes Jeff and Ken so successful is there unflinching dedication and belief in what and HOW they do things. They become lightning rods -they also have a great deal to offer. Publicly humiliating them or, more insidious, trying to bring them down a notch, is uncalled for and disrespectful, not of them so much, as it is for their contribution to the art

Mike

 

[PB+J]

I think the point here is that no one is assigning any "weight" except the individual readers, who make their own decisions about whose post they count as reliable--it's not a problem, it's a good thing.

The Ken flap was about incivility, not the "weight" assigned to his opinions--at least, for thee moderators it was. Part of the issue here seems to be how much respect is given to experienced posters. Should the moderators have to chide people for not giving famous name X enough respect? No, that would be impossible, unless you wanted to have a "respectability scale" built in somehow, in which number of gigs times years of playing times size of venue times money made times degrees would equal how much respect you were due. Instead, the mods try to enforce a baseline of civility. Seems like a reasonable approach

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Any pro with accomplishments in the field of bass can undermine his authority in just a few posts if his skill with words doesn't exactly match up to the actual accomplishment in the "real" world..

We were posting at the same time - but my point is that this is wrong!!

So - if you have the chance of talking to an absolute acknowledged genius with huge experience and achievements(not that I'm saying this is exactly the situation we were talking about ) - you are going to deny yourself the benefit of that - just because this person doesn't express themself very well...:scowl:

To me that is completely the wrong way round - and conversely if sombody writes very well - but knows nothing about the subject, the surely they shouldn't be given priority just because of that...?

Surely we can allow some leeway for those who have a lot to contribute and if not, then why not? What is the point of this site/forum - if it is full of people who can express themselves nicely but know nothing about the subject?

Surely this is all the wrong way round!!??

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Part of the issue here seems to be how much respect is given to experienced posters. Should the moderators have to chide people for not giving famous name X enough respect? No, that would be impossible, unless you wanted to have a "respectability scale" built in somehow, in which number of gigs times years of playing times size of venue times money made times degrees would equal how much respect you were due.

Well why not - my view is if this does not happen then there is no incentive for experienced "experts" to stay around here - what's in it for them if they get no respect?

My view is that this approach will inevitably lead to a forum populated by those who know nothing but can be polite and write well - we have seen it happen - people get no respect for their achievements and they go - I've lost count of the number of times now!

Instead, the mods try to enforce a baseline of civility. Seems like a reasonable approach

Well that's the easy approach - but is it what we really want - does it give us the forum we want, or just a lowest common denominator/...?

 

[drurb]

Let me put this a different way - hopefully, in person (not on TV, not is some virtual world, but in real flesh and blood) you speak differently with your peers than you do with your teachers, your clergy, your boss. Perhaps it is out of respect or reverence. Perhaps it is out of social grace or even fear. Hopefully that person has earned that respect.

There are some might feel that internet forums become the great equalizer. A place where they can "take down" this person, where they somehow feel that there opinion carries equal weight or, more often, a place where there total lack of self esteem and inadequacies, comes out by the only way they know - to try to bring down others.

I cannot count the number of times that I have seen it here. It comes from the subtle to the sublime. I have a thick skin. I took much of it as an Ask The Pro. One day I said enough. I still post but much less than I used to and I never offer musical advice. I monitor what is said about the company I work for and other industry issues. If you know better than me, if you know more than Jeff Berlin, if you know more then Ken Smith - please let me know where I can find you because you must be one mutherf@##@ing player and I NEED to hear you and worship at your feet

Mike

For the most part I agree but good teachers, clergy, and bosses nurture those who respect them. They are the last who should be condescending, insulting, or demeaning. When they are, they lose respect and those who are subordinate to them often seek other mentors, teachers, and bosses as the case may be.

 

[drurb]

And where did this "begging Ken to come back" thing start, DRURB?

Well, you interpreted my comment a bit too literally. You are quite correct that that has not been done explicitly here. I was referring to the general sentiments offered by some posting here. I should have been clearer.

 

[Mike Dimin]

For the most part I agree but good teachers, clergy, and bosses nurture those who respect them. They are the last who should be condescending, insulting, or demeaning. When they are not, they lose respect and those who are subordinate to them often seek other mentors, teachers, and bosses as the case may be.

As a former Pro here I can attest that it was always my intention to nuture those who came seeking advice. There were always some who would then chime in how I was wrong (w/o btw, offering either why I was wrong or a better way to do it). Those who would be rude, yet within the limits of TB. Although I had the option of removing their posts, I never did. I wanted the discourse. However the level of disrespect gre to unacceptable levels. People who would be contrary just for the purpose of being contrary. A good boss, clergy or teacher earns that respect for each and every person, every single day. But the anonymous nature of forums gives a minority permission to act like jackasses - and they do.

This is a minority of people, but it ruins the experience for all and drives away those whose life has been dedicated to the art.

Mike