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Sealed Cabs = Solution to Boomy Rooms?

#21
All the cab companies are in business to make money. Knowing this, they are all the "industry standard" (self-anointed).

A phat, faux bass does indeed sell cabs, accomplishing the desired results for the cab makers. If you can keep the guitar player out of the mid-bass, the faux bass offers that punch and cut that passes for big bass.

The problem with a strong bottom, which I know from long experience, is that most rooms don't work well with it. The typical bar turns into booming mud with a huge bottom. This is a room problem, not an amp problem. The Edens perform well in bar venues, because they don't excite the bottom octave and generate mud.

Take the same Eden outdoors, and it won't generate much bottom booty. It is better off as a stage monitor. This probably won't sit well with the Eden afficiendos, but facts is facts, and not intended to flame Eden owners. Outdoors, you can push a big bottom and not have the booming problems inherent in a small room, but you need a lot more than (4) 10s to do the job.

If you play mostly bar venues, get a cab that performs well there. If you play outdoors also, use bass horns. It is generous to have both...

:D
 
#24
Joker:

When need be, I also like to use a parametric EQ in the manner which you have described. But, to get to the heart of your question, IMHO, sealed cabs do tend to be better at filling up a room without getting boomy. Of course, this is highly dependant upon which particular cabs you are talking about. Most of my experience with sealed cabs has been with the NV215 (or a vintage Ampeg 8x10).

Tom.
 
#26
bgavin said:
All the cab companies are in business to make money. Knowing this, they are all the "industry standard" (self-anointed).

A phat, faux bass does indeed sell cabs, accomplishing the desired results for the cab makers. If you can keep the guitar player out of the mid-bass, the faux bass offers that punch and cut that passes for big bass.

The problem with a strong bottom, which I know from long experience, is that most rooms don't work well with it. The typical bar turns into booming mud with a huge bottom. This is a room problem, not an amp problem. The Edens perform well in bar venues, because they don't excite the bottom octave and generate mud.

Take the same Eden outdoors, and it won't generate much bottom booty. It is better off as a stage monitor. This probably won't sit well with the Eden afficiendos, but facts is facts, and not intended to flame Eden owners. Outdoors, you can push a big bottom and not have the booming problems inherent in a small room, but you need a lot more than (4) 10s to do the job.

If you play mostly bar venues, get a cab that performs well there. If you play outdoors also, use bass horns. It is generous to have both...

:D
Click to expand...

A lot of what you've said here seems to have justified my decision to sell my D410XLT. It's a great cab... if one is using it as you mentioned: in a small bar venue. However, I also have an NV215, and I can make EQ adjustments from both my DB750, and my active basses to come up with a very satisfying sound... especially one that doesn't sound "muddy."

It is when I pair-up both cabs to either my DB750, or my Marshall VBA400, where I find my sound is missing something. I had mentioned to Jim Begantino in an email that I was doing this, and he said that the vented Eden wouldn't be a good match with his sealed NV215. My ear has begun to agree, yet I'm not smart enough to know just why... :(

So, what I'm seriously considering is selling the D410XLT, and buying an NV425. It's a sealed cab like the NV215. I'm thinking it should replace the Eden just fine in a bar venue, and, when I play larger rooms, it should pair-up rather nicely with the NV215... 3 x 15s plus 3 x 10s (and the little 6-incher).

Your thoughts and/or opinion would be sincerely appreciated...
 
#29
I had it stated verbally once to me that under ideal conditions, you would see a speaker cone moving very little when in use. The assumption I made was that excessive cone movement or travel indicated that some of the parameters were approaching undesirable conditions or that the box was tuned incorrectly, or that the low end limit was "reached" under certain power conditions.

Any rules of observation for the bass player shopping for cabinets on this point, or is it more or less pointless?
 
#30
tonenazi said:
I had it stated verbally once to me that under ideal conditions, you would see a speaker cone moving very little when in use. The assumption I made was that excessive cone movement or travel indicated that some of the parameters were approaching undesirable conditions or that the box was tuned incorrectly, or that the low end limit was "reached" under certain power conditions.

Any rules of observation for the bass player shopping for cabinets on this point, or is it more or less pointless?
Click to expand...

Well. I don't really know if this is correct or not.

BUT. Lately I've been doin' some real nice overdrive/feedback tests with my rig, some overdrive pedals and my bass... I'm standing at like 5 inches away from my rig and when it starts feebacking all speaker cones start moving back and forth some inches... I really like the sound of this!!!!
 
#31
I had it stated verbally .. you would see a speaker cone moving very little when in use...excessive cone movement or travel indicated that some of the parameters were approaching undesirable ...box was tuned incorrectly, ... low end limit was "reached".
Click to expand...
Depends on what the driver is doing. If it's a sub working below 60 Hz you should see a lot of cone movement. If it's a ten working above 80 Hz a lot of movement isn't good.
considering is selling the D410XLT, and buying an NV425..a sealed cab like the NV215.
Click to expand...
Mixing sealed and vented cabs that operate within the same bandwidth isn't a good idea, as you've discovered. But using a vented box for down low and a sealed box for the midbass can be a very good combination. In the midbass range where most tens operate there isn't necessarily an advantage to vented over sealed, but below 100 Hz the advantage definetely shifts to a vented box, if it's done right. Your best bet is to try your Berg along with other cabs to find what best compliments it.
 
#32
I think the cone movement thing was taken somewhat out of context. The accurate statement for this is, the cone movement is almost nil at the tuning frequency. Cone motion reaches a maximum around the upper resonance frequency, and also increases rapidly (unloads) below the tuning frequency.

The pro sound guys found out a long time ago that mixing sub types kills bass. Especially so with two different vented boxes. If you are going to stack 'em, then make 'em all the same.
 
#33
Every room is different and every cab sounds different in every room. Finding the magic cab is a challenge. My own personal experience favours sealed or rear ported as giving me the best overall sound. I find I can get "my sound" most often with those configurations. It just sounds tighter to me.
 
#35
bmc said:
Every room is different and every cab sounds different in every room. Finding the magic cab is a challenge.
Click to expand...
Another +1. That's why I own both sealed and ported cabs. For boomy situations, I bring the sealed cab (Bergantino NV610). When I need low-end ooomph -- say, outdoors -- then I usually bring ported (Berg HT series cabs).

Obviously guesswork is involved in rooms I haven't played before. If I'm not sure I usually bring the ported cabs -- main reason being, they're smaller than the NV610!
 
#36
Having multiple cabs is great that is for sure... but is it not true and already mentioned, one can EQ out the boominess with ported cabs but still have the lower extension for the outside/very big venues... That is the problem I run into mostly, and that is not really knowing what I need ahead of time. I just tried an NV215 over the weekend and it was very very good, but I didn't find it that much better than my large ported cab at least for hearing myself on stage. I did find however, that it was the absolute best PICK sound I've ever heard. If I was strictly a pick player or even mostly I would buy this cab... just the best pick tone ever. :bassist:
 
#37
Big String said:
Having multiple cabs is great that is for sure... but is it not true and already mentioned, one can EQ out the boominess with ported cabs but still have the lower extension for the outside/very big venues...
Click to expand...
I agree that EQ can help, but I'd qualify that to say *powerful* EQ is best for removing boom. I'm talkin' parametric, semi-parametric, or narrow band rotary/graphic. IME basic 3 band EQ can sometimes help, but other times isn't precise enough to remove boom without hurting tone.

I'd rather bring the appropriate cab for the room than try to fight the inappropriate one. The difference between sealed and ported isn't always drastic (as we all know, some rooms sound like crap regardless!) but the less tweaking done the better... especially because I don't always have time to tweak.

As always, this a matter of personal preference, not better/worse. I'm definitely not an "EQ is bad" person... to the contrary! Sometimes I guess wrong and have to tweak.



P.S. As for low-end extension -- my understanding is that sealed cabs start rolling off higher than ported ones, but ported ones roll off more steeply below the tuning frequency. Regardless, I can get nice low end rumble from my NV610, even down low on my 5-string. That said, I usually bring my ported HT cabs to outdoor gigs. :)
 
#38
Big String said:
I just tried an NV215 over the weekend and it was very very good, but I didn't find it that much better than my large ported cab at least for hearing myself on stage. I did find however, that it was the absolute best PICK sound I've ever heard. If I was strictly a pick player or even mostly I would buy this cab... just the best pick tone ever. :bassist:
Click to expand...

So, Big String did you find the sound blurry or not enough focused...My experience is that the nv215 is a bit more focused in the mids and low end than the el whappo which I know you have tried, and to me it actually projects really good in a live setting...but again it is not a "cut through" kind of cab...I think that has more to do with the speaker size... :)
 

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