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Double Bass Self-taught bassists (DB forum thread)

#23
Self taught or a million music lessons will not mean crap if you don't have an ear to know when something doesn't sound good. All this talk about proper music theory is ******** unless you play in an orchestra which I doubt many people do here. Follow players who play the music you want to play. If you can't hear what's happening in a song or just can't keep up then practice more period. A miilion lessons aren't worth a crap if you just can't play the instrument. I started playing guitar first for 4 years then transitioned to bass cause our band already had two guitar players. Going from guitar to bass made it much easier as it was clear what chords were being played and from there I threw in sick little bass riffs to fill the void.
 
#25
7_DefTone_7 said:
All this talk about proper music theory is ******** unless you play in an orchestra
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And here ladies and gents, we have glaring tower of ignorance, continuing to lower the denominator for bassists and contemporary musicians alike.
:hiding:
I will never understand why someone would choose to limit themselves by refusing to learn some theory. I'm a high school music teacher, and I will NEVER talk negatively to, or about, someone who does not know something yet.
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”

I will however, oppose anti-intellectual ideology and elected ignorance until the end of my days.
 
#26
Originally Posted by 7_DefTone_7
All this talk about proper music theory is ******** unless you play in an orchestra

7DT7

I would beg to differ with your comment. In some cases, quite the opposite... In an orchestral setting, I am tasked with playing the notes on the page. No more, no less. I don't have any choices. We don't improvise.

When I'm playing jazz or other improvisational-based styles of music, however, I find it quite helpful to have mastery of 'proper music theory'.

You may find that those of us who make our living solely by music-based work (jobs that have real salaries with health benefits, paid vacations, paid retirement, travel stipends, grant opportunities <$51,000 in 2011>, free computers & ipads, unlimited recording studio time, I can go on if you would like...) are not self-taught. I've had a few private lessons, and a few theory courses. I've even taken helpful courses such as 'music history and literature' and 'form and analysis'.

<sorry, rant over. carry on>
 
#27
Self-teaching has nothing to do with whether or not you learn theory. You can bone up on theory without a teacher to explain it to you. As far as whether to learn it or not, I like what Victor Wooten said in reply to a question about it in the Live at Bassday 98 video; music is a language. When you speak a sentence, you don't think about the grammar much. You KNOW the grammar, whether by having been taught it in school or just by having absorbed it from other speakers of the language, but you don't consciously think about it while you're playing. Music is the same way. You should KNOW the grammar of music - the theory - whether from formal study or by absorbing it from other musicians. But by the time you play, you say what you want to say in your music. The grammar fades into the substructure.

Anyway, to the OP, I was certainly of the impression that many if not most of the great classic rock bassists of the 60s and 70s were largely self-taught, at least on bass. Some may have had lessons on guitar and then switched over. Entwhistle was a French Horn player or something before taking up bass, I don't think he had a bass teacher. Chris Squire learned music as a choirboy. Same is true in later eras: I think all the guys in U2 except Larry Mullen had to figure out their instruments on their own. There are lots of examples.

EDIT: the "orchestra" comment puzzles me. Seems to me that an orchestra setting, where you're given sheet music to play, is where you need to know theory the LEAST. There's no playing by ear, no improvising, no ad libbed fills. I once had a performance where we had this weird little combo to supply music under a program of teen girls reading their poetry. We had me, a guitarist, a harpist and two flutes. When we had rehearsal and heard the poetry, the guitarist, the harpist and me jumped in and started jamming. The flautists, who were from the local civic orchestra, said "let's go home and find some sheet music to match this." We couldn't tell them "let's do a jam on this in D minor," they had no idea what to do.
 
#28
Nasty Nate said:
If some one set out to teach themselves calculus, we would wonder why they would ever want to do that.
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If you're implying that it's not possible to teach yourself calculus I'm gonna say that's just not true. Never was true, even before the days of the days of the internet and the likes of the Khan Academy. There are a gazillion books out there that will guide you along the way.

It's not an easy road to being a self-taught instrumentalist. Heck, to be a self-taught *anything*. Not everyone has the intelligence and self-honesty and lack of ego and willingness to ask questions and about a hundred other attributes we could name. And, even if you've got all those attributes, there are *still* no guarantees you won't do something dumb to yourself. That dumb thing is most likely going to be in the area of physical technique, but you could stunt yourself in any number of areas.

Every person wanting to play DB should get at least a few lessons from someone who knows what they're doing and can show you the most likely ways in which you're going to **** yourself up.
 
#29
Damon Rondeau said:
If you're implying that it's not possible to teach yourself calculus I'm gonna say that's just not true. Never was true, even before the days of the days of the internet and the likes of the Khan Academy. There are a gazillion books out there that will guide you along the way.

It's not an easy road to being a self-taught instrumentalist. Heck, to be a self-taught *anything*. Not everyone has the intelligence and self-honesty and lack of ego and willingness to ask questions and about a hundred other attributes we could name. And, even if you've got all those attributes, there are *still* no guarantees you won't do something dumb to yourself. That dumb thing is most likely going to be in the area of physical technique, but you could stunt yourself in any number of areas.

Every person wanting to play DB should get at least a few lessons from someone who knows what they're doing and can show you the most likely ways in which you're going to **** yourself up.
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I think that was a joke...
Calculus being perceived as being dry and low on the fulfillment scale... then again, I love calc so I don't know... I agree with what you're saying though!
 
#31
OmNomNom said:
Just out of curiosity, I am wondering if anyone can name any notable self-taught bassists from any style? I have been teaching myself (with intentions of lessons in the next month) but cannot think off-hand of any well-known players that did not receive personal instruction or get a further education.
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Original bass player for the Doobie Brothers, never had a lesson in his life, taught himself listening to the Beatles albums.
 
#32
If you think I was saying screw theory then let me say now that I never meant to imply that at all. What I was trying to say was if you simply can't afford the time or the money then learning things on your own is fine in itself. If I had a theory teacher then I would absorb everything they had to offer. But it does not mean you cannot teach yourself to rock out. I play everything from Radiohead to grungy Nirvana covers as well as Foo Fighters and I took what I learned from guitar over to bass. I play all those exactly the way they are played in the studio. Was I a student of a bass theory teacher? NO. So if you have the resources to sit with a teacher great! If you don't then its not the end of the world. That's all I was trying to say. Ignorant? Say what you will. I rock out so that's all that matters. Lol.

As far as the orchestra comment is concerned , do you have to know how to read music? Last time I checked you did unless musicians are now being born with the ability to read sheet music from the womb! Do you have to learn what the other musicians are performing during the same performance? Uh yes!
 
#33
7_DefTone_7 said:
I play everything from Radiohead to grungy Nirvana covers as well as Foo Fighters and I took what I learned from guitar over to bass. I play all those exactly the way they are played in the studio. Was I a student of a bass theory teacher? NO.
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Again this is the double bass forum. Playing Nirvana covers is something totally different than studying classical or playing jazz. If you only play exactly what others do that's ok, but it is not very creative. If that is what your ambitions are ok then you don't need theory. But you will get stuck with that after some time..
 
#34
A sad and useless thread, much along the lines of "Why isn't jazz more popular"? :eek::eek:

To add to the idiocy we have guys from the slab side stating how they can "rock out" without any lessons. Congratulations. I'm happy for you. :cool::help::cool:

Although the ability to "rock out" has nothing to do with playing double bass, jazz (in any form), standards, classical music or much of anything else that involves more than a passing knowledge of music theory and technique.

Can you be self taught? Of course you can, and there are some fine examples of bassists who were and are self-taught including our very own Mr. Warmbuttocks. :D Is that a reason not to seek out and avail yourself of the many valuable tools and insights a good teacher/musical education will provide you with? Of course not!

For futher info please dial 1-800 INO-CARE ;)
 
#35
Don Higdon said:
The ring finger shares one tendon with the pinky (I don't know the name). There are certain movements which cannot be done by the ring finger in isolation.
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I hesitate to contribute further to the prolongation of this thread, but ...

The extensor tendon of the ring finger sends slips to the pinky and middle fingers, which is why you can't lift it far from the surface of a table while keeping the other fingers in contact with the surface, palm down. The flexor is much more independent; there is a retinaculum which "binds" all the flexors in a common sheath, but this allows relatively independent flexion, as demonstrated by the ability to touch one's palm with the ring finger while keeping the other fingers more-or-less fully extended. This is far more difficult with the pinky, in fact, but it can be trained.

I knew it would only be a matter of time before med school anatomy paid off. :hmm:
 
#38
There seems to be this knee-jerk "learned vs natural" discussion going on that is 100% irrelevant to my original post. In retrospect, I shouldn't have even MENTIONED being new to double bass and teaching myself thus far, as it is actually not at all related to the question at hand. I was just curious, in my own methods of exploring the instrument, how many successful bassists did not receive any type of formal instruction.. whether it be private lessons, school, etc. I was most curious to see if there was anyone in the jazz or classical realm.. strictly rockabilly players being self-taught is something I figured was more common than not.
 
#39
A worn-out topic, but I am gonna jump in anyway. I'm a student and a teacher. Everyone is self-taught. All the examples of "self taught" players sang in a choir in school or church, asked informal questions, watched others play, listened to recordings of others, learned from others. . .

"Self Taught" too often means "Look at me! I am so great that I refuse to draw on the knowledge and experience of someone who has been performing and teaching for years."

"Self Taught" too often means "I am clearly superior to all those guys who had all their knowledge spoon-fed to them and can't think for themselves/have no "feel"/sound just like everyone else who went to skool/only copy other players!"

Teachers are there to lean on, to speed up your process of finding your music, to show you ways of thinking you can explore, to help you play in an efficient manner that will hurt you the least, physically. No teacher can take away your music or your "soul".

Yeah, I really hate this phrase, and "Classically trained" is just as bad.
 
#40
Ok, sorry if I knee-jerked on top of the other responses. Got all mad.
I can't think of many players I dig that never took a lesson. I can't really think of any good reason to say "I never took a lesson", either, except self aggrandizement.
 

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