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Double Bass Self-taught bassists (DB forum thread)

#61
I am an amatuer photographer. I don't really understand the theory behind it...I just like taking pictures. Sometimes I get lucky and a few turn out quite nicely. However, I would never go on a photography forum and rant about how I don't need to understand lighting composition to take nice pictures---or about how my digital Rebel blows away someone else's EOS-1D X.

TroyK said:
...but the attitude described here:

Is what I object to and it is quite prevalent.
Click to expand...

I attribute it to an excuse to be lazy.
 
#62
The Most Likely to be Not Very Good self-taught player is the one who sticks to himself, who never deals with other musicians, whose musical endeavours are a little like a obsessive-compulsive disorder and not so much healthy musicianship. You don't see so many of those types in bass land -- you see umpteen thousands in guitar land. Bedroom players.

You can learn a lot from your colleagues if you hang with the right people and have the right attitude. Even if you went to school and got all certified and everything, openness to learning and musical exchange is an attitude.

I'm too much a child of the 60's to be too hung up on *where* someone studied, *who* they studied with, *what* they studied, *when* they did their studying. I wanna hear how they play and I wanna see what kind of person they are to hang with. I think most musicians are open and practical that way. The history of jazz is chock full of that collegial learning dynamic.

I think the Internet has changed this collegial dynamic a little bit -- both for better or worse. It's exploded the size of your collegial crew and made it simple to communicate almost instantly. It's had this effect on any community of people who are really into something. Gardeners, woodworkers, gamers -- you name it. Our own TalkBass is an excellent example, and potentially a real boon to those who for whatever reason have stayed away from schools and teachers. I say *potentially* a real boon because, as I've mentioned in this post and hinted at earlier in this thread, the success of your self-education depends mostly on your own attitude and your own work.

And I love the idea that ultimately we're all self-taught. Because we surely are.

Thanks for a decade of lessons, TB'ers everywhere!
 
#63
NickyBass said:
I am an amatuer photographer. I don't really understand the theory behind it...I just like taking pictures. Sometimes I get lucky and a few turn out quite nicely. However, I would never go on a photography forum and rant about how I don't need to understand lighting composition to take nice pictures---or about how my digital Rebel blows away someone else's EOS-1D X.
Click to expand...

Exactly! and you might decide to hire an amateur to photograph your wedding if they were a friend and/or you were on a budget, but you'd understand and notice the difference.

Damon Rondeau said:
...
I'm too much a child of the 60's to be too hung up on *where* someone studied, *who* they studied with, *what* they studied, *when* they did their studying. I wanna hear how they play and I wanna see what kind of person they are to hang with. I think most musicians are open and practical that way. The history of jazz is chock full of that collegial learning dynamic.
...
And I love the idea that ultimately we're all self-taught. Because we surely are.

Thanks for a decade of lessons, TB'ers everywhere!
Click to expand...

Testify!
 
#64
Been watching and reading this thread with interest and it sure has taken a turn for the better. Thank you Troy for your insight and your comments. One last thought from another small market, mediocre bassist. :D

Just to echo Damon R; We all are essentially self taught to some degree. As a teacher it was my job to direct and mentor students, not study for them. Anyone who did well in any of the classes I facilitated (taught), did so because of the time they spent on their own actually working through the material and assignments.

In music, those solitary hours, spent alone, working on technique, exercises, ear training and transcription, as well as many other musical endeavors is, in effect, self teaching. A teacher can point you in a direction and help you along the way but he cannot do all the hard work that's necessary to be even mediocre.

In my view, a degree means that you've jumped through a certain amount of hoops; no more no less. Some guys come out of academia as great players, some are developing along a solid musical path and some just come out with a degree. It's really all about personal dedication.

Just to wrap this up; even though others can show you the way. You are the only one that will determine what you gain and/or take away from any and all teachers, mentors and schools. In effect, you end up teaching yourself by grasping what others have indicated that you should know in order to be, at the very least, competent. However, at least for me, if someone chooses to go it alone and not seek out good mentors, teachers and/or schools, that person will have a much harder road to travel.
 
#65
Well essentially we're constantly reinventing ourselves. Every practice session is an attempt of changing something about yourself, the way your hear, or the way you play. Nobody can reinvent yourself except you.

Teachers just help things along, but you still have to do the heavy lifting - if you have the determination for it. Those who forgo teachers have to figure it out all on their own. It's harder yes, but I would say sometimes it's also more fun and more satisfying to achieve something without help. It depends.
 
#67
7_DefTone_7 said:
I play everything from Radiohead to grungy Nirvana covers as well as Foo Fighters and I took what I learned from guitar over to bass. I play all those exactly the way they are played in the studio. !
Click to expand...

That is hardly "everything" - it is in fact a very narrow area and guitar-based rock bands like that, use a small range of chords that are comfortable for them.

If you look at at a few Jazz standards, you will find more chords in a few minutes, than were used in several decades of grunge! ;)

The thing is that there is a huge variety of music out there and guitar-based rock is incredibly limited - to a few chords and the same driving 4/4 beat thumped out on drums to make it easy for everybody to know where they are.

On a trip to Greece, I was lucky enough to hear local folk music accompanying traditional dancing - over 2 hours, every tune had a different time signature and unique rhythm - which was as far away from 4/4 rock as you could get. These were popular folk melodies though - handed down from generation to generation in an oral tradition of teaching.

It struck me then - how narrow our view of music has become - mostly due to a reliance on simple guitar chords. I saw a TV programme about Japanese Classical music, which uses just temperament scales, as opposed to the equal tempered scales that have become predominant in the west and it does sound very different - but the sad thing is that young Japanese people are now more attuned to western scales and it sounds out of tune to them.

There is so much music out there to explore!
 
#68
gerry grable said:
Let's face it guys. We are all self-taught. Some of us just get a little more guidance along the way :)
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Where did I read this before? Oh, it was my earlier post which DamonSmith and Damon R seemed to corroborate :D


As for NickyBass and Troyk, they still don't get true analagies.
It's a matter of definitions. To be a professional at anything means that you perform a particular sevice for a living. You get paid for it. Amateur simply means for the love of it. You don't get paid (usually) and don't do it for a living.
I think we all agree on the above.
But, professional is not necessarily synonymous with expertise or ability. And, amateur is not necessarily indicative of ineptness or incompetance.
On the contrary, I've know many amateurs in all of the above mentioned categories who have been sublime, and, alas, far too many professionals of the same, especially musicians, who simply suck.
 
#69
In essence Victor Wooten is self taught. Of course he grew up in a musical family and that was his formal training. With all the resouces available online today self taught takes on a new meaning.
 
#70
Great discussion here! Now, just to pull the thread firmly back onto the (perhaps, of little use) original topic:

Invalid Link Removed

:)
 
#71
gerry grable said:
As for NickyBass and Troyk, they still don't get true analagies.
It's a matter of definitions. To be a professional at anything means that you perform a particular sevice for a living. You get paid for it. Amateur simply means for the love of it. You don't get paid (usually) and don't do it for a living.
I think we all agree on the above.
But, professional is not necessarily synonymous with expertise or ability. And, amateur is not necessarily indicative of ineptness or incompetance.
On the contrary, I've know many amateurs in all of the above mentioned categories who have been sublime, and, alas, far too many professionals of the same, especially musicians, who simply suck.
Click to expand...

Of course. My only issue is when people claim that formal training is, in some way, a bad thing. I see it on the BG side every week, without fail.

There are many paths to greatness and I always celebrate that one is on the path regardless of how they are traveling. I found a way that works for me, and it includes (among other things) having (a) having a teacher and (b) jumping into situations, hoping to get my a$s kicked. That path works for me. We never quite attain the level that we desire, but hopefully, we learn from the journey. I would never look down on someone who does it differently. My point is that one may not NEED to work on technique and theory to achieve their own personal goals...but to dismiss these concepts as negatives is a strange position. All I can do is defend my position that the search for knowledge can (almost) never be a bad thing.
 
#73
Guygrooves said:
BUFFALO BILLY SHEEHAN~~Did it his way!! Self taught and states in his interviews that he just picked up all the pieces along the way...playing alot and live..amazing player
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Not a doublebassist. Good player in the rock genre. Not what we're talking about, but hey why should we let that stop us?

Gerry, analogies and definitions are entirely different things. In fact, since you brought it up, for clarity:

Analogy - a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
Definition - the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc., as found in dictionaries.

I know the difference between an amateur and a professional and I realize and accept that we have both here and plenty of people who straddle that line. It's of no concern to me.

I stand by my analogy with Romneyesque defiance that if I were choosing a plumber or an architect, I would not chose the guy with some tools and an attitude about figuring everything out on his own. Doesn't mean that I want to see a university diploma, but I'd feel more comfortable knowing that he didn't just figure this out on his own out of stubberness. In fact, I own an old house and have found a bunch of repairs that look like they came from just such a person. Someone who was probably very proud of their work when they did it. Ditto for software, since someone brought that up. If you've ever picked through production code, it is not all equal. Someone who has learned to follow standards and comment as they go has created something much more manageable than someone who hacked something together that technically worked, but they didn't really understand at the time.

But, is that really what you want to argue on thread? Proper analogies? My opinion about quality tradesmen? Do you really want to keep making this about me, knowing that you and are just going to keep coming back at each other? Why not just leave more room for bass guitar players to wonder over here and post the names of their favorite players as examples that you don't need a teacher to learn to play 4 chords on a P-Bass?
 
#74
When it comes to analogies, some merit can be found in any one that's stated while some manner in which one doesn't apply can always be found. The merit of the analogy depends largely on the essence on which it rests.

As I see it, Troy's analogy is informative and meaningful. It does not rest on the "professional vs. amateur" distinction but on the the fact that the former typically learn their craft via formal, established, proven paths while the latter often do not.

If one reads the whole of Troy's comments, then it's also clear that he would not necessarily rule out hiring a craftsman who was self-taught. As I read his comments, he would choose not to hire someone who seemed to eschew established methods and practices in favor of his own and/or without evidence of expertise.

So, Troy, correct me if I'm wrong but you would hire a Paul Warburton, self-taught or not. You'd also hire a self-taught plumber with a proven track record (as long as he/she had a a license). :)
 
#76
Gerry, analogies and definitions are entirely different things. In fact, since you brought it up, for clarity:

Analogy - a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
Definition - the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc., as found in dictionaries.

I know the difference between an amateur and a professional and I realize and accept that we have both here and plenty of people who straddle that line. It's of no concern to me.





Okay. . .I give up. I'm not here to teach Logic 101. Google Fallacies if you like and while you're at it, Google Reductio ad absurdum.

Anyone who believes any of these following comments from another post is obviously nuts.

-Theory ruins creativity
-Technique hampers feel
-The cheaper one's instrument, the better
-Learning to read somehow limits one's ability to improvise
-Playing precomposed music does not allow one to 'express' oneself

And even though I am entirely self-taught, I have always (in any of my posts where the question came up) encouraged young bassists to definitely get a teacher. It's like an old grizzled sergeant in the Army once warned us in basic training while vigorously demonstrating and twirling an M1 rifle: "Don't do as I do; do as I say do."

And I only posted on this thread to mention my friend Tony Marino--self-taught!
 
#77
I've been self-taught for the last 20 years. I do lots of stuff that I probably shouldn't and I wish I had more musical knowledge. But, I don't have the patience to sit down and learn scales. I just like to play what comes out and what I think sounds good.

If I had to do it over, I would have spent more time learning what it is that I am actually doing.
 
#78
gerry grable said:
...Anyone who believes any of these following comments from another post is obviously nuts.

-Theory ruins creativity
-Technique hampers feel
-The cheaper one's instrument, the better
-Learning to read somehow limits one's ability to improvise
-Playing precomposed music does not allow one to 'express' oneself
Click to expand...

Well, out of touch with reality and potentially delusional anyway! :)
 
#79
To me, plumbing is a commodity service. Same with engineering and a lot of certified trades and occupations we might mention. What I really care about there (as an employer or a customer) is certification and insurance and how long they've been in business and whether there's no reputation for being a bad plumber. If that all checks out, I could care less who actually comes to do the job. It's like buying a shipload of grain or something... It's essentially a generic commodity.

Music is less like that. At the end of the day, there are no serious hazards such as risks to life or limb or property -- it's really about the ability to perform. There's nothing about the structure of playing music as a job that creates an obvious necessity for a prescribed course of study and legit certification. So, within that type of structure you find folks who really are musicians no matter how you define that, who have come to that status through all manner of developmental channels.

I think a lot of what this thread is telling us is that not many mature, experienced bass players believe a person can be a completely self-contained and self-developed player -- a real Nature Boy -- and reach a masterful level of competency. Every player who gets anywhere near that status is going to have a sense of how far they've come and the steps that were...er..."instrumental" in getting there. They are going to have stories about what they learned from whom, and they're going to be grateful.

In a nutshell: it's really naive to think you can go it completely on your own. Use your mentality: wake up to reality!
 

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