Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass Self-taught bassists (DB forum thread)
- Thread starter OmNomNom
- Start date
So that is two out of how many others? So, there are some guys who came up during the years of classic jazz and worked with the greats. I don't think there are any recent examples I care much about...
Let's face it guys. We are all self-taught. Some of us just get a little more guidance along the way
Let's face it guys. We are all self-taught. Some of us just get a little more guidance along the way
In some ways, sure. In the cases of PW and WW I'd call it on the job training, and you can't get jobs with Monk and Bill Evans anymore.
I have to disagree with this. Theory is also a language with which one can communicate. It can be as simple as the conductor saying 'whoever has the third there, bring it out more.' Or it can be a pianist playing a fugue and instictively knowing that a certain passage is an augmented inversion of the subject. Often times, a seemingly difficult passage can be broken down and performed easier if one has a working knowledge of theory.
I doubt Bill Evans and Monk hired PW and WW for any other reason than the way they *already* played at the time they hired them.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,738
- 8,958
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
I would rather listen to Les Claypool than to most well taught bass players. Wasn't Jaco self taught? or Pino Palladino? or Mick Karn?
ok, we were talking double bass I know
At least some of us were....
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,738
- 8,958
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
There's a nice collection of interviews with Wilbur Ware (7 CDs worth), he talks some about how his career declined as more and more gigs called for sight reading and used harmonic material that was not based on standard chord changes.
But you have to be a little careful when you talk about "self taught" with jazz players. Prior to the advent of a wide spread academic approach to jazz, there was definitely more of an "apprenticeship", if you will, amongst musicians. The early development of this music is something that the Burns documentary covers pretty well; the change in the race laws in Louisiana in the late 19th century forced a population of conservatory trained, mixed race musicians out of "polite society" and into the marketplace of more popular minority musical styles. And that started changing the music. By the time you get into the 20s and 30s, the majority of African American musicians were involved in jazz because they did not have the opportunity to thrive in the world of classical performance. And as more distance was gained from the conservatory world, the more you have younger musicians getting guidance and tutelage from older or more experienced musicians; Sam Jones being mentored by Ray Brown, who was mentored by Milt Hinton (who, as a young boy, studied classical violin). Or Dizzy, conducting what were basically advanced harmony classes for the other musicians in Cootie Williams band.
But as always, do what you want. Not only is it no skin off my nose, it's one less on the train....
Ed - I'm actually not advocating being "self taught", and I didn't throw my name in the ring as it is usually thrown in the discussion on this subject here because I'm not really "self taught" - I already had a masters in theory/comp and was playing piano professionally by the time I picked up a DB for the first time. And just to head off any possible confusion beforehand in case it comes up, while I am largely self taught on DB, I have had a few lessons from a classical teacher (8) back in the beginning on left hand technique, have had a few individual lessons with the Aebersold guys (Rufus, Lynn S., and GOLDSBY WAN KENOBI), and one of my best friends is the classical bass teacher here at the U... so I don't think, between all of that, that I would describe myself as *actually* "self taught" (typing all of this more for the peanut gallery than for you, who already know all of this).
My point above was merely that PW and WW were already pretty damn good when they were hired by Monk/Evans, or they wouldn't have been hired by Monk/Evans at all. I would advocate for most people to spend some time with a teacher if they are serious about pursuing playing on a high level. If that makes me a hypocrite, then so be it; my side of the argument would be that by the I picked up the DB at age 35, I had already been studying music with teachers of various instruments at various places for 30 years, and I think that counted for something. And for DB newbies, I would definitely advise getting enough of a foundation in technique so as to avoid injuring yourself - advice which I at first did not take, then got injured, then took. Been there, got the cast... so to newbies, please don't follow that portion of my example!
My point above was merely that PW and WW were already pretty damn good when they were hired by Monk/Evans, or they wouldn't have been hired by Monk/Evans at all. I would advocate for most people to spend some time with a teacher if they are serious about pursuing playing on a high level. If that makes me a hypocrite, then so be it; my side of the argument would be that by the I picked up the DB at age 35, I had already been studying music with teachers of various instruments at various places for 30 years, and I think that counted for something. And for DB newbies, I would definitely advise getting enough of a foundation in technique so as to avoid injuring yourself - advice which I at first did not take, then got injured, then took. Been there, got the cast... so to newbies, please don't follow that portion of my example!
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,738
- 8,958
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Sorry for not being clear, DURRL, I just quoted you cause you were the last one to bring up WW, then I made a little space and was talking in a more general way about the problem when, for example, someone starts talking about Sam Jones (or anyone playing this music that either did not go through academia or is not connected with a specific teacher) as being "self taught". I thought the little space would be enough of an indication that I was speaking to another point, but it dint work. Apologies for the confusion.
Would you hire a proudly self-taught..dentist? ...plumber? or even something artistic and expressive like...architect?
I realize that there are limits of access and means and I think whether it sounds like it or not, everyone respects that. But, there's an endless stream of people coming through here who don't play our instrument claiming that they can do so on the basis of who they are or what they've done elsewhere. It gets old.
I don't have a problem with people believing it and/or doing it, so much as coming here to ask for us to agree with their assertion and then arguing with us about it. They might even feel like they're winning the argument with us at times because an equal number of people who also don't play our instrument show up to support them and talk about ****ing Flea.
...and then wonder why we're so cranky.
I realize that there are limits of access and means and I think whether it sounds like it or not, everyone respects that. But, there's an endless stream of people coming through here who don't play our instrument claiming that they can do so on the basis of who they are or what they've done elsewhere. It gets old.
I don't have a problem with people believing it and/or doing it, so much as coming here to ask for us to agree with their assertion and then arguing with us about it. They might even feel like they're winning the argument with us at times because an equal number of people who also don't play our instrument show up to support them and talk about ****ing Flea.
...and then wonder why we're so cranky.
Reminds me of a story, actually. A very good friend of mine locally called me and asked if I would teach lessons to his friend (for money) who had just bought an upright bass. Never played before, but didn't think he'd have a problem because he played guitar in high school or some ****. Because the person asking me was a good friend, I told him that I didn't teach, but I'd be happy to invite his friend over, help him any way I could and refer him to a local teacher once I had a sense for what he was trying to do.
The guy called me and we talked for a while, I was really cool and welcoming and we started talking about his schedule and mine and then he said "I'm dying to play it, even if you just show me how to pop the bridge on, then that should be enough to get me going."
So, it turns out that he bought a bass or maybe a BSO that didn't even have a bridge installed. I asked about the soundpost and if it was standing or rattling around inside or missing and he didn't know what I was talking about. I lost my composure a little, but I think I was still cool, though I did tell him he HAD to see a luthier and figure out what he had, that we couldn't just "pop his bridge on" and start playing. If it didn't have a soundpost and we put it under tension, if could collapse, for example. I gave him a couple of numbers and told him I would be happy to have him and his bass over afterward and help him however I could. Never heard from him again.
Asked my friend about it years later and he said he was probably embarrassed. I asked him if he had gotten it fixed or learned to play it and he said he didn't think so.
But, somehow without help, he had decided that a) he had gotten a good deal on it, though he didn't understand the instrument at all and b) that he could play it based on some past experience noodling on a different type of instrument. In the end, someone offered him essentially free (and worth every penny) lessons and he gave up instead.
It just gets old. Every good musician I know, regardless of instrument or genre, has worked hard to be so and works hard to stay so. I don't love everything about my playing. I can attribute 100% of my inadequacies to work I haven't done yet. But, we have a constant barrage of people here claiming that they are special.
The guy called me and we talked for a while, I was really cool and welcoming and we started talking about his schedule and mine and then he said "I'm dying to play it, even if you just show me how to pop the bridge on, then that should be enough to get me going."
So, it turns out that he bought a bass or maybe a BSO that didn't even have a bridge installed. I asked about the soundpost and if it was standing or rattling around inside or missing and he didn't know what I was talking about. I lost my composure a little, but I think I was still cool, though I did tell him he HAD to see a luthier and figure out what he had, that we couldn't just "pop his bridge on" and start playing. If it didn't have a soundpost and we put it under tension, if could collapse, for example. I gave him a couple of numbers and told him I would be happy to have him and his bass over afterward and help him however I could. Never heard from him again.
Asked my friend about it years later and he said he was probably embarrassed. I asked him if he had gotten it fixed or learned to play it and he said he didn't think so.
But, somehow without help, he had decided that a) he had gotten a good deal on it, though he didn't understand the instrument at all and b) that he could play it based on some past experience noodling on a different type of instrument. In the end, someone offered him essentially free (and worth every penny) lessons and he gave up instead.
It just gets old. Every good musician I know, regardless of instrument or genre, has worked hard to be so and works hard to stay so. I don't love everything about my playing. I can attribute 100% of my inadequacies to work I haven't done yet. But, we have a constant barrage of people here claiming that they are special.
I have met a few wonderful musicians on the BG side, however, the previous afformentioned bassists notwithstanding, here are some other interesting topics that I often see over there:
-Theory ruins creativity
-Technique hampers feel
-The cheaper one's instrument, the better
-Learning to read somehow limits one's ability to improvise
-Playing precomposed music does not allow one to 'express' oneself
Well on behalf of my fellow old, stodgy TBDB brothers and sisters, I think I can best express my feelings about that with a great quote from a horrible movie:
Jack Nicholson said:
Lousy analogies, Troyk. There are thousands of plumbers, carpenters, and even electricians and electronic designers who are self-taught. Doctors and dentists? No, but come on, that is really stretching it.
+1. Lots of software engineers are self taught. How good they are is another story. It depends on the discipline. Considering that music is an art and not a science, it's alot easier to get away with being self taught or simply not need instruction. Acceditation is not required. There are no review boards for bass playing because there is no need for public safety during a solo (well some might argue that. 
) I suppose you could say DaVinci is self taught engineer but he has plenty of bad designs as well.
Anyways, Is Charlie Haden self taught? I don't see anything about him and his teachers, but I'm also not looking in old threads out of laziness.
) I suppose you could say DaVinci is self taught engineer but he has plenty of bad designs as well.Anyways, Is Charlie Haden self taught? I don't see anything about him and his teachers, but I'm also not looking in old threads out of laziness.
IMO, the argument to find a teacher is born out of the fact that it is hard to break bad habits, and that they, eventually, can lead to injuries. There are countless recollections of bassists who spend years 'un-learning' bad technique. I find it is better to learn how to do something 'correctly' from the start.
I'm not so sure. If I had a plumbing problem or was doing a remodel and I met someone who said "I didn't need to learn from no-body, I just know what to do. People who like, you know, apprenticed with an experienced plumber, their creativity is stifled, I just take a sledge hammer and whack it all out and then get my torch and sweat some new pipes and you're good to go." Would make me pretty nervous. Not that you can't learn to do plumbing on your own (I have, as a matter of fact), but someone with the attitude that learning from someone experienced before putting themselves out there would just hold them back, is probably not who I want hacking my house up.
Jammers who have no idea what they are doing, not matter how cool something that they play is, are not people I like to be on a gig with. They frequently don't have essentials like good time and basic harmonic relativity and intonation. You can tell quickly when someone can't speak your language and you're unable to have that quick plan come together on the gig that enables you to do something useful together that might actually be pleasing to people who are listening. The classic example is the jazz vocalist who actually has a pretty good voice, but has no idea what is going on on stage around her or when to come in after solos. I know some quite talented horn players like that too. Fun to occasionally hit with them at a jam session, would never hire them for a gig (again).
It is easy to create an entire "band" recording by yourself with Garage Band or SoundCloud and "get your music out there". Working with other musicians is something else.
I didn't study music in University. I've done way more work on my own than I have with help, but I've had teachers (didn't want them to begin with, honestly, but I'm glad I got over it.) There are exceptions. People learn different ways, some people get addicted to lessons like others get addicted to therapy or pilates, but the attitude described here:
Is what I object to and it is quite prevalent. Though I have a hard time thinking of an experienced jazz or classical doublebassist who espouses it, though in truth some have had more formal training than others.
Back to defending my analogy. Even as a smallish market, free-lance jazz player, I'm being "hired" by people. They have choices. My fierce artistic integrity is not nearly as important to them as my ability to communicate with them in a common language and come up with the goods when they count it off. Very few people have the kind of innate talent that will mask the fact that they don't know what they are doing in that situation, especially if they are a rhythm section player. I stand by my analogies (or maybe different examples of the same) that if I am hiring a professional to do something that I care about then I don't want attitude from them about how more training and/or education on the subject at hand would have just held them back.
But, I don't expect to convert people who are determined to feel differently.
