BobDeRosa
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- May 16, 2012
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Double Bass Set Up for Jazz Gig
- Thread starter bass81800
- Start date
Earl
Supporting Member
I prefer the Oscar Peterson/Ahmed Jamal setup because I really dislike having my right ear right by the piano strings - way to loud for me and makes it difficult to hear myself.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I don't recall ever having difficulty hearing a drummer on stage. But, hearing the piano (especially electric piano) or rhythm guitar clearly has often been a challenge.
My preference is to set up on stage so I can hear myself (venue acoustics, amp placement), have good eye contact with the other members of the rhythm section, and be able to hear the pianist's voice - he's usually the person calling tunes, keys, announcing segues, etc.
My preference is to set up on stage so I can hear myself (venue acoustics, amp placement), have good eye contact with the other members of the rhythm section, and be able to hear the pianist's voice - he's usually the person calling tunes, keys, announcing segues, etc.
Yeah, who are these drummers that play so soft you can't hear them without having the ride or hi-hat stuck in your ear? And can I play with more of them and fewer of the drummers the rest of us in the real world find on the bandstand?
No that’s not right. Monty is directing everything and it’s very spontaneous. There’s no set list. In order for that scenario to work (and works great with him), there’s got to be good communication.
Also, eye contact and verbal communication are not the only way to play together. There’s physical gestures, too.
I like to be in the middle myself, because i feel like i am the center of the jazz trio. Gives me a great vantage point to give the drummer or keys the stink eye when the groove starts to waver 
I like to be where I can see the pianist's left hand for when I get lost.
Amen to that. As long as I'm within ear shot of the drummer, I'm good. However, I always rely on the keys left hand pinky on songs I'm either not familiar with or too complex for me to have adequately rehearsed for.
It's a smart move, really. I'm also a piano player, so that helps. I guess if you don't know the keyboard, such a location is moot.
I have lost the high frequencies in my left ear so I prefer that all the other musicians be on my right.
So, as said above, I come early and I claim my spot ;-)
So, as said above, I come early and I claim my spot ;-)
I've been (trying) to explain this for years to fellow musicians. The only argument that anyone comes up with is "eye contact" but folks, we play music with our ears! I've also spent a lot of time getting young ensembles to take more care in how they position themselves relative to each other, and of course, the bass player to the amp. Mostly, they just go with "what was there". But as a young player accompanying my teachers to gigs, I saw how much attention and discussion they put into placement. It's a critical part of playing well.
I was watching Oscar Peterson with Ray the other night and took a picture of the screen. After reading this thread I whipped up this quick graphic. A picture is work 1k words, right?
I was watching Oscar Peterson with Ray the other night and took a picture of the screen. After reading this thread I whipped up this quick graphic. A picture is work 1k words, right?
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Of course it all depends. Every room is different, and sometimes the geography of the space just doesn't allow the ideal set up. The acoustics can affect note choices. Sometimes something as simple as a root-fifth will sound better with the 5th above or below. I think one of the things that makes players with great sounds sound that way is that they are constantly listening and changing what they play to fit the actual sound they are involved in making - register, how many notes, attack, all that varies according to the moment. That said, some rooms are really tough. I have a steady in a room that I just can't get a decent sound in. My bandmates constantly ask me to turn up to a level where all I hear is bass and can't really sync with the drummer. I've tried standing everywhere. Last night I tried putting my speaker way over there - away from me and much closer to everyone else. Nope. Still sucked.
I love trying to solve these challenges (when they aren't mine ).
Is it a small space? One thing that I learned from Stephan Schertler, who I had the great fortune to connect with in the early 90's in Europe, when he was first developing the moving coil pickup, was that the amp position is super important. The low E 40hZ wave is 28 feet so to hear a complete waveform you gotta be far from your amp. Of course, that is weird as hell in real life, but I've found that if I can get my amp way back, deep in the stage, it can be better.
But if this is a small room, are monitors being used? If so... why? I find this to be a big problem - too much sound on stage. Here's a great way to think, courtesy of Steve Gilmore, which they used with Phil Woods in theaters up to 3k seats: No mics on anything, no monitors. Grand piano, lid open or even on half position, bass amp used to bring the bass up to meet all of the above criteria. Now, that is a theater where everyone paid to listen to Phil, which is NOT a club, right? But it's an interesting starting point.
The reason that I bring that up is the inherent mentality in "turn it up". The true response should be, likely to the drummer, "play better" which means, at a nice volume. That is a dying art and all the monitors, in-ear monitors, etc... are all contributing to a lack of ability to create energy and swing at ANY volume.
This has been covered in endless threads on this forum of bass brethren, but this is my turn....
).Is it a small space? One thing that I learned from Stephan Schertler, who I had the great fortune to connect with in the early 90's in Europe, when he was first developing the moving coil pickup, was that the amp position is super important. The low E 40hZ wave is 28 feet so to hear a complete waveform you gotta be far from your amp. Of course, that is weird as hell in real life, but I've found that if I can get my amp way back, deep in the stage, it can be better.
But if this is a small room, are monitors being used? If so... why? I find this to be a big problem - too much sound on stage. Here's a great way to think, courtesy of Steve Gilmore, which they used with Phil Woods in theaters up to 3k seats: No mics on anything, no monitors. Grand piano, lid open or even on half position, bass amp used to bring the bass up to meet all of the above criteria. Now, that is a theater where everyone paid to listen to Phil, which is NOT a club, right? But it's an interesting starting point.
The reason that I bring that up is the inherent mentality in "turn it up". The true response should be, likely to the drummer, "play better" which means, at a nice volume. That is a dying art and all the monitors, in-ear monitors, etc... are all contributing to a lack of ability to create energy and swing at ANY volume.
This has been covered in endless threads on this forum of bass brethren, but this is my turn....
I generally prefer to be on the left of a right-handed drummer, for closer connection with the hat and better eye contact. I prefer to be in the curve of the grand piano for a better check on intonation and eye contact. In big band, with the drummer on a riser behind, I'd take that piano position, which gave me better access to the director and first alto. I'll do the same in trio with a grand piano, particularly because I'm often singing as well. Electric piano is a different story.
In my old trio the (electric) pianist and drummer both liked to play louder than I prefer, and I found our best configuration was me up center, drummer down right and pianist down left facing each other. We could all maintain eye contact and hear one another directly and closely.
In my old trio the (electric) pianist and drummer both liked to play louder than I prefer, and I found our best configuration was me up center, drummer down right and pianist down left facing each other. We could all maintain eye contact and hear one another directly and closely.
The green numbers on the Oscar-Ray-Ed are pretty off. Head distances are likely 4 feet apart each, (3feet for Ray when up in thumb like in the pic). Numbers aside, the concept makes sense with sound source acoustic clarity, proximity and less latency. It does have its merits. Selim made the same point a few posts above.
Still it has its drawbacks too. In your video screen shot, it looks like Oscar had the top removed from the Grand piano to allow an open sound but with audience visual access to Ray. Removing the top on a grand is not an option for most folks performing in a venue.
Staging wise, drums house-left, and people close together is great for elevated camera crews with 4:3 TV ratio, but for live audiences in a club, further apart can look better.
Sometimes, people want less sound not more, so distance is liked. ie. Pianist does not want to hear so much ride cymbal, or kick drum, so further away is better.
The piano house-left arrangement you've shown in the Keith Jarret pic can be had with everyone much closer to each other as well. The bassist for sure will not need piano or drums in his monitor. Really, no monitors would be needed, just the bass amp since grand pianos and drums are loud enough on their own. (Well, maybe the drummer will need a monitor as his instrument is loud enough to cover the others.)
Well, sure I didn't have my measuring tape when I photographed Oscar
But the point is that when we set up in that arrangement, the piano lid has no impact on the bass player as we are by the keyboard, not the body of the piano. And in that position I can tap the piano player on the shoulder and the drummer could easily bump my bridge with their hand (not to mention a stick!). So we are close! And we can communicate in a better way than "eye contact" - we can actually talk to each other under our breath, which may or may not be a good thing!Not sure how Jack is going to hear Gary's acoustic sound coming out of the back of the bass. One of the great things about the drummer listening to the bass bridge is that it's the "fast" sound of the bass, lotta attack, and should have positive effect on locking in together. I'm super sensitive about drummers who I can tell can't hear me very well. They won't mention it, but it won't be locking up and they aren't making waves/just want to play. I'm talking about good drummers where we have established a rapport...
As far as the visual thing for the audience, I'm sorry, but IMHO this is another example of how we have negatively moved music making back in favor of other things, like how it looks on TV. I know I'm stretching things a bit, but it's like in the studio where engineers have favored isolation over the musicians being comfortable and able to really play. The performance is always the most important thing to me, followed by things like visuals or even quality of sound for the listener. If we aren't comfortable, we can't play our best, right?
Just to jump in on this argument a little, I agree that some people put too much emphasis on being in constant eye contact with each other. It's nice, but think about it--when you play with horn players or singers, they have their backs to you most of the time. If they need to make eye contact, they turn around briefly, no problem. Pianists can do the same in the OP setup. And verbal communication is much easier, as was mentioned. If the piano player wants to tell the band something, they just turn their head and quietly tell us. I can't think of how many times in the "normal" setup, if the room is at all noisy, the pianist has had to lean over the strings and practically yell for me to hear something, then I have to play telephone and relay it to the drummer across the stage.
As far as sound is concerned, my experience has generally been that it is easier to hear each other in the OP setup and overall volume is more controlled. I don't know how much of this is inherent in the setup and how much is related to the thought processes of those who choose one setup over another. I do think there may be something where the pianist and drummer see how far apart they are in the standard setup and feel some need to "play to" that other person. Like if you are talking to someone across the room, you will feel the need to speak up. Conversely, if we are all right together, bashing away on our instruments just feels kind of like we're yelling in people's faces, so we tend to play with a more intimate sound. Or something.
Great points, Michael. Wait, Seattle guy? Do I know you?
Maybe that's how we roll in Seattle!
^^^^This. I play with a pianist who likes to set up this way. With the lid on, I can't hear the piano nearly as well, which makes me turn down, which makes him ask me to turn up, which makes me unable to hear the piano very well again. Last Sunday I played with him in a more normal trio setup, and could hear him much better.
