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Shotgun Question

Thankfully nothing happened to your family.

My dog barks, but he's only a dachshund. Not much in the way of home protection.:bawl:
My neighbor locked her self out of the house and ask if I would climb the fence around back, go in and open the front door. She told me to beware of the dachshund. He barked at me coming over the fence, going through the door, walking through her house, opening the door and leaving. Wasn't real scary, but I am used to dobermans, and have handled dogs all my life.
 
Make sure you throroughly UNDERSTAND California's laws concerning the use of deadly force in self defense. You may walk on the criminal case of a good shoot but the follow on civil suit could ruin you. That scumbag you ventilated will suddenly be portrayed as an angel who was "turning his life around" or was "active in church" before you the "murdering gun nut" gave him a lead overdose.

You never "shoot to kill", you merely "shoot to neutralize" or to "stop the threat" (this means no coup de grace). Very important when making your statement to your lawyer and the cops post shooting.

You do not try to scare the dirtbag with that "ka chuk" pump sound. That stick better be ready and loaded before the confrontation comes.

20ga buckshot loads are easy to get in gun shows (coz you know, one gun leads to another... and another...). They normally come in #3 or #4 buck. The only visible difference in the terminal effect is that the hamburger isn't chopped as fine as 00.

You still have to AIM a shotgun.

My "ready shotgun" is an old side by side in 12 ga. Faster follow up shot. Yes I don't get a reload but with my quiet lifestyle, odds are I will never face multiple home invaders. And even if I do, I'll just grab the next loaded piece.
 
Make sure you throroughly UNDERSTAND California's laws concerning the use of deadly force in self defense. You may walk on the criminal case of a good shoot but the follow on civil suit could ruin you. That scumbag you ventilated will suddenly be portrayed as an angel who was "turning his life around" or was "active in church" before you the "murdering gun nut" gave him a lead overdose.

You never "shoot to kill", you merely "shoot to neutralize" or to "stop the threat" (this means no coup de grace).
Very good point. I used to live in Calif. The use of deadly force laws are strict and used to be stricter. Here all they have to be is in my house uninvited. There I believe you have to prove your life was in danger, and then use just enough force to end the threat. KNOW YOUR LOCAL LAWS.
 
So...there are a lot of posts about the Ka-CHUNK of a racking shotgun. But, if the gun is loaded, as it should be, the intruder would not hear that sound unless the homeowner wants to eject a perfectly good cartridge.
Yes, that is a cool sound, and should cause an otherwise normal person to lose bowel control, but it isn't likely to be the first noise a shotgun makes if being used as a home defense tool.
And if used properly, it isn't likely to be heard at all.
 
Very good point. I used to live in Calif. The use of deadly force laws are strict and used to be stricter. Here all they have to be is in my house uninvited. There I believe you have to prove your life was in danger, and then use just enough force to end the threat. KNOW YOUR LOCAL LAWS.

More specifically, one has to believe that there is a real danger of death or disfigurement to an innocent, and that only up to the minimum required amount of force is justified. And it depends a great deal on the county. For example, in some rural counties, you'd be given a slap on the wrist, but in Santa Cruz, they will charge you with criminal kidnapping if you restrain a burglar.

But, if Mr Badguy is dead......

I am not being hopeful that this happens, as I am against the death penalty, if my family is in danger, I am not going to try and be a judge of intent.

Aim for the ear...
 
It sounds like you are trying to be serious about developing a responsible strategy for arming yourself, so I will offer one suggestion and sign off.

Do not solicit advice on self defense with guns from bass players. It makes as much sense as getting medical advice from bartenders, and it can get you killed. Find a real professional or three (bearing in mind that there are more poseurs acting like tough guys than poseurs acting like rock stars) and get educated face to face, not on-line.

While I am sure there are a few qualified folks registered on Talkbass, the overwhelming majority of respondents are just guessing, and this subject has precious little tolerance for error. Use your head, find someone whom you are absolutely sure knows what they are talking about, and do this thing right.
 
He's actually right on this one, Serg - I was provoking him a little. I'm not at all interested in getting into a debate and ruining this thread; I was just having a little fun.

Peace?

I know.

Hence the picture. :D


I just don't have a point anymore, i am leaving this conversation. I think I've been a little out of line to assume what i did. Been a very weird week and i might take things wrong, so I will try not to take anything anyway. Sorry...

Out.
 
Man! I got to this party late.

While I agree with Tombrien about getting your information in person rather than online, I'm still going to put out my contribution.

Go with light loads. Bird shot is more than effective at very close ranges.Energy fall off is quick, but very effective out to fifteen or twenty yards. Most engagements are fought at less than ten. Deer loads ARE darned effective on humans, but at home defense ranges, so are bird loads. And bird loads are less likely to go through a wall and hit your kids in the next room.

I like my Mossberg 500 for simple comfortable ease of use. And I recommend it to anyone but the 870 is also a great piece of gear. I taught my wife how to use mine in a weekend. And all the parts of that that were unique to that particular shotgun were maybe twenty minutes of that weekend. The rest was familiarization with technique for ANY shotgun. (Pull the stock tight into your shoulder. Make sure to pull the barrel down till you are actually aiming again BEFORE squeezing the trigger a second time, etc...Obvious I know. But I've seen the aftereffects of gun use by the untrained/undertrained.)

And make sure you AND SHE practice. Don't just show her how it all works and assume she's good. Do it periodically until it is natural to her. In a panic situation muscle memory works better than conscious thought. It's how we're wired.

As far as the ka-CHUK sound effect, it DOES get attention. But if you aren't VERY practiced, you won't be able to keep the weapon aimed at Mr. Invader while you're making that warning noise. I could do it, and I still wouldn't.

I would steal a trick from an old cop I knew. He had to use a shotgun at home once. He knelt down with the weapon aimed at the bad guys chest before he made his presence known. Mr Badguy immediately turned and fired at him...right over his head. Cliff then shot him and the problem was over. I think they wrote about him in the back of one of the gun magazines.

Fortunately in Texas, something like that doesn't get you in trouble withthe law the way it would in say California. I can't even picture being charged with kidnapping for restraining a robber.
 
Make sure you throroughly UNDERSTAND California's laws concerning the use of deadly force in self defense. You may walk on the criminal case of a good shoot but the follow on civil suit could ruin you. That scumbag you ventilated will suddenly be portrayed as an angel who was "turning his life around" or was "active in church" before you the "murdering gun nut" gave him a lead overdose.

You never "shoot to kill", you merely "shoot to neutralize" or to "stop the threat" (this means no coup de grace). Very important when making your statement to your lawyer and the cops post shooting.

You do not try to scare the dirtbag with that "ka chuk" pump sound. That stick better be ready and loaded before the confrontation comes.

20ga buckshot loads are easy to get in gun shows (coz you know, one gun leads to another... and another...). They normally come in #3 or #4 buck. The only visible difference in the terminal effect is that the hamburger isn't chopped as fine as 00.

You still have to AIM a shotgun.

My "ready shotgun" is an old side by side in 12 ga. Faster follow up shot. Yes I don't get a reload but with my quiet lifestyle, odds are I will never face multiple home invaders. And even if I do, I'll just grab the next loaded piece.

If you're unsure of your state's laws, it's probably better to load up on less lethal ammunition.

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OK, a few thoughts, may be random at times. :)

Don't underestimate the deterrent effect of a dog barking. Criminals love soft targets, and dogs don't make it easier on them. On that note think about planting prickly bushes underneath your windows, but not high enough that someone could hide in them. Make sure your outside is well lit, by motion detecting lights and others. On top of the deterrent effect, it allows you to look outside from a dark room without being seen. Reinforce your doors; steel frames and solid locks, not the ones you get at Walmart. You can also easily use X-10 or similar technologies to control all the home lighting from your bedroom which can give you a great advantage.

I have to really disagree with the light shot recommendation. I personally know people who have been shot during hunting season, at relatively short range, with lighter (not buckshot) shot during turkey season. Birdshot is for birds. Use buckshot, I like 00, for home defense. Ballistic gelatin may make small shot look OK, but put a heavy winter coat or leather jacket in its way and the effectiveness is really reduced.

Get a simple, pump, non-tactical shotgun. If you want to put a magazine extender on it for a couple extra shots, OK, but keep the fancy stuff off of it. Find a used 870 for cheap, or a Wingmaster or similar. Mossbergs are OK too, I just like the quality of the Remingtons. 18.5" cylinder bore will do just fine.

Close range shotgunning is more than point-and-shoot. The pattern is relatively small. I wouldn't call it refined aiming, but you're not going to take out everything in a hallway, and yes, you can easily miss someone at 10 feet with a shotgun.

PRACTICE. You don't want to short-stroke a shotgun in the heat of the moment and jam it up. And while we're talking about racking the slide, don't rely on hardened criminals' knees turning to jelly at the sound of the pump. Maybe, but not likely. All you did was notify the perp of your presence. Maybe he'll flee, maybe he'll lie in wait.

Which brings me to another point. If you really think someone is in your house, arm yourself, gather everyone in a room together, like your bedroom, and call 911 from your cell phone (you keep your cell phone next to your bed, right? Phone lines can be cut, even if just to disable alarm systems). Don't go looking for the guy. If you think he's there, defend your family if he comes looking for you but don't go looking for him. House clearing is enough of a pucker factor for several trained police officers, let alone a single, scared homeowner. If he comes to you, you have the advantage.

Don't try to restrain the perp or attempt to cuff him or put yourself anywhere near him. Don't put your foot on his neck. You are placing yourself in a position where he can get to you. Stand back at a safe distance, like you would with a rattlesnake, cover him with your weapon, and call 911. If he gets away, big deal. Your primary concern is to protect your family, not to be the arresting officer.

Forget about non-lethal stuff like beanbags, etc. This isn't the time to mess around with stuff like that. You don't have cuffs, backup, or anything like that. If you need to stop someone, you need to do it NOW.

There has been ongoing debate over the safety of shotgun projectiles versus a light, high velocity fragmenting bullet like the .223/5.56 fired from a rifle like the AR. That's another discussion... but just remember that anything that will penetrate enough to do any kind of damage to a home intruder will blow through drywall like nothing. If it won't, it's not powerful enough to stop a potentially drug-crazed criminal. You don't want it. So always remember what's behind the walls in your line of fire, including your neighbors.

If you're not prepared to kill someone, don't bother with a gun. You don't have to like the idea, I hope you don't, but you have to be willing to do what needs to be done if the situation arises. If not, the gun is worthless at best and could be dangerous to you to say the least. I'm a sensitive guy and I know if I had to take out a criminal who was threatening my family, it would devastate me and affect me emotionally for the rest of my life and I'll always second-guess myself after the fact, but I'll fight to the death to defend my family who relies on me.
 
No WAY I'm trusting my life to that stuff. If we're already in my home I'm not going to get myself killed playing with bean bags.

bc

I agree 100%, not only that that less then lethal load that leaves a perp alive and damaged able to return fire. But you are just asking for a lawsuit. This is about defending your life and your family, do what is necessary, nothing more, nothing less. As far as bird-shot I agree, #4 is not bird-shot, but I would not load up a shotgun with 8's for home protection, it's just too light a pellet.

Check your states laws but do not contact the local police with questions. Some police officers are of the belief that they should be the only citizens with guns able to protect themselves (not most, some) and they are not lawyers. And check local ordinances, but I don't know anywhere in the US where you are allowed to have a gun at home that your not allowed to use it, if deadly force is necessary against an armed intruder. It gets far murkier with unarmed intruders, or not inside your house (the yard or garage). A good rule of thumb is IF you can flee, then run away. Nothing in your house including that new Sadowsky bass is worth getting killed for. As far as getting advice on a bass players forum, their are many police officers here, a few lawyers and at least a half dozen that have received tactical weapons (including legal issues) training. In MI. it is required to get a CCW. I can think of worse places to go for info.
 
So...there are a lot of posts about the Ka-CHUNK of a racking shotgun. But, if the gun is loaded, as it should be, the intruder would not hear that sound unless the homeowner wants to eject a perfectly good cartridge.
Yes, that is a cool sound, and should cause an otherwise normal person to lose bowel control, but it isn't likely to be the first noise a shotgun makes if being used as a home defense tool.
And if used properly, it isn't likely to be heard at all.

Many shotguns are not "drop safe" with a round in the chamber, so I wouldn't recommend keeping it in such a state.
 
I neglected to mention that when the intruders where in my family's house my father's gun was not even loaded. The police had been called and were well en route. My father just didn't want them coming up to our bedrooms.

Because of small children, even though the 870 was in a locked case, the shells are kept in another part of the house under lock and key.

Another +1 to dogs. (Digme, those boxers are beautiful - and intimidating. I bet they're total sweeties!)
 
Many shotguns are not "drop safe" with a round in the chamber, so I wouldn't recommend keeping it in such a state.

"Drop-safe" is whether a firearm has the precautions to keep a firearm that has been dropped on its muzzle from firing due to firing pin inertia... I think you'd have to climb a step ladder to get enough inertia to fire a shotgun like that! :D

With handguns, it's more of an issue. But, to each their own.