Should a drummer be expected to count back in after a pause?

[prater]

My drummer has great rhythm, unfortunately I do not have it as good as him, but I'm getting better at it.

My issue is that after a pause, especially after a guitar intro where there is a few moments of silence before we start, he doesn't like to give us even a single click, he just exaggerates his first hit which is visual cue but I would prefer at least a single hi hat click.

Other times he does weird fills that throw me off if not paying close attention.

Whenever it throws me off his only response is "you should be counting."

My thinking is, he's the one with the click in his ear.

With the fills, I've thought about sitting down with him and getting him explain the fill to me and where the beat falls within the fill.

But with the clicking us in, I don't think its too much to ask that he click a stick or a hi hat one beat before we start.

Is this something I need to work on or is he being unreasonable?

 

[MothBox]

If there is a dramatic pause you may find clicking through it or clicking for re-entry spoils that.

You need to get used to the beat and counting it and feeling it. Even with practice people make mistakes. Songs which rely on such timings take a while to become tight and rely on the band working as a whole.

Practice the parts where timing is an issue over and over. Don't just play a song and move on discussing that there was a mistake. Play that 10 second piece until its nailed. If you can't feel the beat through the pause have him drum it a few times so you can. The pause should be the same every time if he's working to a click which should make it easier.

 

[Wolffgang]

If you're talking about specific, deliberate pauses that go for a determined length of time in the same spot, I'd say there's nothing wrong with some kind of indication, but that it's easy enough to also just 'learn' the pause.

Anything but that, just throw a damn stick click in (or hat, or kick, or any sort of indication). To me, to do otherwise would be slavish adherence to a method, rather than the performance as a whole.

Without hearing it in action, it's hard to judge, but like you imply, let's see how well HE can do it without a click track (and when he's NOT the one leading).

I don't think you're being unreasonable.

 

[StayLow]

Count.

If there's doubt what the count is, discuss and agree on it then practice it with the metronome. Ideally with a drum machine where you can cross out beats until you have mostly, or only, space to count through and once you've got that down then you'll find your time improved considerably.

 

[hrodbert696]

If there is a dramatic pause you may find clicking through it or clicking for re-entry spoils that.

You need to get used to the beat and counting it and feeling it. Even with practice people make mistakes. Songs which rely on such timings take a while to become tight and rely on the band working as a whole.

Practice the parts where timing is an issue over and over. Don't just play a song and move on discussing that there was a mistake. Play that 10 second piece until its nailed. If you can't feel the beat through the pause have him drum it a few times so you can. The pause should be the same every time if he's working to a click which should make it easier.

I agree with this. If there's a long pause, the whole point is to impress people with how tight the band is by coming in WITHOUT someone having to click you in. Practice practice practice.

 

[bluesdogblues]

Should a drummer be expected to count back in after a pause?

Not always. Depend on the situation. Sometime it could be just visual cue (eye contact) between you and him/her. Sometime needed, sometime nothing. depend.

"you should be counting."

True

With the fills, I've thought about sitting down with him and getting him explain the fill to me and where the beat falls within the fill.

You should

I don't think its too much to ask that he click a stick or a hi hat one beat before we start.

Like my first answer of your thread title: depend on the situation.

Above all, as members of band everyone including bassist and drummer should communicate well about anything happen in your band, especially to have same understanding in playing your music.

 

[edpal]

But with the clicking us in, I don't think its too much to ask that he click a stick or a hi hat one beat before we start. Is this something I need to work on or is he being unreasonable?

A single click is of no use, since you still wouldn't know what the interval is to the NEXT beat/click. The visual cue at the beginning of a song, after a guitar intro as you indicated, has the same problem unless he has calibrated his mental click to the guitarist's speed, even if the song is going to jump tempo incredibly after the intro. I personally think doing the visual cue is more likely to look cheezy at beginning of a song, in the middle of the song it looks more like you and he are working it together.

Try to count, try to learn the fill as the drummer counts it. You are not being unreasonable, this is fairly common issue between drummers and bass players. I had similar with guitarist lately, he wanted us to come in dead at beginning of song where our parts are very different,"dude,I need a couple notes so I know what your speedometer is set at today."

Do you record your practices?....get a small handheld like a Zoom 2 channel($99?) and then you can practice counting the intervals out whilst woodshedding.

 

[AngryPig1]

I find a single beat can help a little as you already know the tempo just a quick upbeat to show that the one is where everyones in is useful.

a drummer i used to play with would give a visual 'air hit' on the hats sot hat our rhythmically challenged guitarist could get on board.

alternatively another guy used to hit the floor/wall/drum stool if there was a difficult count in so the band could just about hear it but the audience would have been hard rpessed to hear it (especailly what with the hordes of screaming girls etc etc)

but i reckon do as stated above, practice the problem areas loads of times with a click and slowly remove it until you are spot on. same with the drum fills

 

[oldfclefer]

But with the clicking us in, I don't think its too much to ask that he click a stick or a hi hat one beat before we start.

Is this something I need to work on or is he being unreasonable?

well considering that he is only a drummer...you can only expect so much but seriously now...count through it yourself...eventually you'll feel the change and lock in together...

 

[Zeus_Mutation]

HI All,
So, I'm chiming in because I'm a drummer… I'm on the site because I dabble with my bass guitar too. I play drums in most projects and bass with friends messing around. I've played with bassist who can't count time or read sheet music. They rely completely on feel. Some have it, some work to get it. I've also played with guys so on point they can tell you where in the count something takes place. (example: on the & or the A… 1-E-&-A of a 1/16 note progression).

Theres no way I'm going to keep time for the band during a silent / stopping section. The whole dynamic would be different. That said, you've gotten great advise from the others… get with your drummer and practice. Remember his fills aren't a random length, rather he fits them into a given space. If you don't count music right now, start practicing it. Its very helpful. My last tip… don't over think, let the Soul Glow and play with feeling.

 

[FretNoMore]

Look at the drummer, you'll see when he is about to hit something after the break and that way you have a visual cue to back up your own counting of the time. This is also useful for song endings where you may have a ritardando or a delayed last note/snare hit.

 

[JaminDyer]

Try to be counting anyway, but one drummer I had used to hit the hi-hat a beat before we came in. Really useful when you lose timing, or when the guitarist has a naturally bad timing anyway

 

[pnchad]

BTW, they're called rests - these pauses or 'stops' you're referring to

we're each responsible for our own time - and, yes count or hum the tune in your head if necessary

honestly though, if you're not committed to having good time, bass may not be your best choice of instruments

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

EDIT: Forgot to reply Your question: "beep, he/she shouldn't"

I have played my whole life in bands that I consider mediocre at best.
Except for one band that could've been considered as therapy for washed up wannabe rockers, if someone has not been able to hold the beat, be that a bassplayer, guitarist, drummer, vocalist, heck, the odd "volunteer" with a egg shaker, they're out.
Plain and simple.

My drummer has great rhythm, unfortunately I do not have it as good as him, but I'm getting better at it.

You have hope then, just practice.

Whenever it throws me off his only response is "you should be counting."

He is a kind person.
VERY kind.
No-one I know would brush it off like that.

My thinking is, he's the one with the click in his ear.

IMO for anything other than learning/practising complex rythms, click is a crutch that should be avoided like a plague.

Regards
Sam

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

As much as it pains me to say this: the drummer is %100 correct.

 

[Li Youwei]

I'm a drummer and also play bass and guitar. During my improv studies the teacher, who is a guitarist, sat behind the drums and tapped out quarter notes on the cymbal with a pen to keep time. It was some of the most solid time I've ever heard from anyone, and really drove home the importance of rhythm for all good musicians. Cannot stand bass without good time.

 

[Neil2094]

Sounds like you know your weaknesses and are working to address them. I'm a drummer who also plays bass, if a band member needs a click I'll happily do it. A band is a team if someone needs additional help then they get it. After while they'll not need it anymore.

 

[collins81]

My opinion is a count in ruins the crispness of a pause. Most of the pauses my band puts in go off of feel, and some visual cues. Sometimes a pause is the only way to make a mediocre cover better. Also, IMO everyone should have the count going on somehow, regardless of who has a click. The mesh, tightness and comfort level will come easier the longer you play with the same group of people.

 

[Joe Louvar]

Everyone should come back in time - rest notes are a beautiful thing... don't ruin those moments.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Learn to Count. The drummer has no obligation to count for you.
You should be working together and watching each other.

As to counting, it helps to do some physical rhythmic movement. Foot tapping, head banging, or something.