Should a fill-in be asked to rehearse

[Floyd Eye]

Ya, rly.

And $25 an hour? No way.

4 hours - Playing time. Say it's a 9pm-1am since OP said it's 4 sets.
+ 1 hour - Get to the gig at least an hour before for setup and sound check.
+ 15 minutes - What a very quick tear down and load into the car would be
+ 1 hour - Travel time, round trip. I very rarely get to drive less than half an hour to whatever venue I'm playing.

So about 15.25 an hour. Then the tax man is going to take on top of that. AND you haven't factored in gas as well as possible food/drinks.

Well, after reading through this thread, including the posts after this one which are responding to it, I agree with you. First of all, to those who say normal jobs don't pay you for gas, travel time, etc.., that is irrelevant. As a sub you are basically a contractor and all those expenses absolutely have to be factored in. The trade off for normal jobs not covering that stuff is, and always has been, guaranteed 40 hrs a week, benefits, etc. As you are basically running a business which you are responsible for the tax liability of, those expenses should NOT come out of your bottom line.

Also, since I have never subbed nor given the issue any thought until now, I would suggest that your estimates concerning your time spent on the gig are actually low, based on several factors pointed out in this thread which I previously hadn't considered.

So yeah, unless these are friends of mine or someone with which I expect to gain something from in the future, $100 is not enough to even consider. $200 may even be a stretch.

 

[Richland123]

I do fill in gigs and have just done a quite a few over the last year. Some with rehearsals and some without. I had a rehearsal last night with a band for a gig this weekend. I had to learn about 40 songs in 1-1/2 days and it's a good thing we got together. Some of the songs had different arrangements and keys than the original recordings and a few other things that needed to be practiced to know how they do the songs.

Bands around here don't make much for gigs; so, requiring to be paid for rehearsals is unheard of locally. Plus, the bands I fill in with are friends of mine and helping each other's bands is normal for me and other players.

 

[troy mcclure]

Stumbo, they gave me a list, I sent back a list of 139 tunes, I sent them a list of 57 I know in my sleep and 20 I have played or could learn or relearn in 1 listen. I ask them to send me back a set list from those 77 tunes.

I am buddies with the singer and guitarist so I will see this stupid thing through and give them a rehearsal. I mentioned that the songlist took a strange turn after I left, when we started the band I wanted to be able to play a great mix of all genres of music with a focus on tunes everyone would know and they have just went all over the place.
Never saw a band cover Godsmack and Glenn Miller at the same gig before...

 

[zephyr_words]

Also, since I have never subbed nor given the issue any thought until now, I would suggest that your estimates concerning your time spent on the gig are actually low, based on several factors pointed out in this thread which I previously hadn't considered.

Yeah, I was estimating on the highside of things for the purpose of having a good discussion. I don't like to beat something into the ground and like to frame things in close to "best case scenario" as possible.

I find my average for is usually more around 8 hours of time spent. I do $150 if it's almost all songs I know. If I need to learn a lot of songs that won't be used elsewhere, it's more around $250. If it's more than two shows I play for an equal band cut.

If we're calculating hourly rates (which I'm not sure is really the paradigm), hardly any normal jobs pay employees more or less depending on how long their commute is, what the gas mileage on their car is, or what they decide to eat or drink at work or on the way. So I would count the setup and strike time when calculating what the hourly pay is, but not travel or gas or food.

Still, if I were subbing I would agree to the one run-through (and not charge extra for it, unless I was turning down OTHER paying work in order to be at the rehearsal). The reason being that I would want to make sure that that the gig didn't turn into a train wreck due to my jumping in cold with these people. I would worry that a couple train wrecks would take me off of people's lists of good subs. Better to keep the work flowing in than to cut it off squabbling over $50.

Well, I'm not looking at it as a normal job or making that argument. I'm talking about the total actual cost of doing something. Those are just real facts and they cannot honestly be ignored.

My "free time" is worth a lot to me so I factor in the total cost of me doing something outside of my "9-5" career.

My normal career skillset I can contract myself out for $100+/- an hour and get to work from home. The thing is I'm not motivated to do that more than a few jobs a year. I play music because it is really rewarding in a lot of ways and easily self-motivating for me to get immersed in. I personally have to draw the line somewhere though or it's just not smart business.

As far as, it's

"Better to keep the work flowing in than to cut it off squabbling over $50."

I say that ones time and ability is only what they are willing to price it at. Maybe that's squabbling? I say everything up front so it's more just a case of the way things are.

The reason being that I would want to make sure that that the gig didn't turn into a train wreck due to my jumping in cold with these people

That's a good reason for some people I suppose. I've never once needed a rehearsal for songs that are covers that people are playing even close to how the tracks are. Every time I do them I'm doing it for the other band members.

If I was worried about train wrecking I think my unpaid time would be much better spent running through the set list at home then packing up, driving to rehearsal, waiting for the guitarist and drummer to finish setting up for 30 minutes, playing, then doing it all in reverse.

 

[fhm555]

Apples and oranges....your motivator on a gig like that is family and camaraderie...

Actually my motivation on ANY job playing is to have fun and hopefully help those who came to hear the band have fun as well.

Who am I kidding? The sad truth is music keeps me from having to step on baby chickens to alleviate my frustrations and anxieties so even if I don't get paid it still saves the cost of a box of baby chickens.

Seriously though, a lot of the sub jobs I've done wind up with me telling the BL to give my cut to whichever regular band member could use it he most. I don't do it out of some misplaced sense of altruism, I do it because it was done for me back when the little extra dough WAS keeping the wolf from my door, and I just enjoy continuing the tradition.

Please don't get me wrong, my favorite charity is still the INTFM fund, it's just that these days I'm lucky enough to not have to worry about ends meeting like I did in the past. I'm not well heeled or anything like that, I just have a nice little stash and someone with an actual brain (wifey) who has a real knack for making money grow.

That and my needs are few and my wants are even fewer so most of what comes in stays in.

 

[hrodbert696]

Well, after reading through this thread, including the posts after this one which are responding to it, I agree with you. First of all, to those who say normal jobs don't pay you for gas, travel time, etc.., that is irrelevant. As a sub you are basically a contractor and all those expenses absolutely have to be factored in. The trade off for normal jobs not covering that stuff is, and always has been, guaranteed 40 hrs a week, benefits, etc. As you are basically running a business which you are responsible for the tax liability of, those expenses should NOT come out of your bottom line.

Also, since I have never subbed nor given the issue any thought until now, I would suggest that your estimates concerning your time spent on the gig are actually low, based on several factors pointed out in this thread which I previously hadn't considered.

So yeah, unless these are friends of mine or someone with which I expect to gain something from in the future, $100 is not enough to even consider. $200 may even be a stretch.

Yeah, I was estimating on the highside of things for the purpose of having a good discussion. I don't like to beat something into the ground and like to frame things in close to "best case scenario" as possible.

I find my average for is usually more around 8 hours of time spent. I do $150 if it's almost all songs I know. If I need to learn a lot of songs that won't be used elsewhere, it's more around $250. If it's more than two shows I play for an equal band cut.



Well, I'm not looking at it as a normal job or making that argument. I'm talking about the total actual cost of doing something. Those are just real facts and they cannot honestly be ignored.

My "free time" is worth a lot to me so I factor in the total cost of me doing something outside of my "9-5" career.

My normal career skillset I can contract myself out for $100+/- an hour and get to work from home. The thing is I'm not motivated to do that more than a few jobs a year. I play music because it is really rewarding in a lot of ways and easily self-motivating for me to get immersed in. I personally have to draw the line somewhere though or it's just not smart business.

As far as, it's I say that ones time and ability is only what they are willing to price it at. Maybe that's squabbling? I say everything up front so it's more just a case of the way things are.



That's a good reason for some people I suppose. I've never once needed a rehearsal for songs that are covers that people are playing even close to how the tracks are. Every time I do them I'm doing it for the other band members.

If I was worried about train wrecking I think my unpaid time would be much better spent running through the set list at home then packing up, driving to rehearsal, waiting for the guitarist and drummer to finish setting up for 30 minutes, playing, then doing it all in reverse.

My point wasn't that a person should ignore these costs, like time and gas and all that. I wouldn't take a "straight" job that involved a 4-hour commute each way because I can't afford the time away from my family, no matter what the money is. We just moved house to eliminate a 1-hour-each way commute for my wife, to save her 10 hours of driving and probably about $75 in gas a week. My point was just that when you're applying for a job that pays, say, $20 an hour, that rate doesn't vary with how much you're driving or how much you eat. If it's too far, too expensive to get to, whatever, of course you can turn it down and say the pay isn't worth the hassle. I'm not arguing there.

But I guess what I am arguing with is the reasoning that the sub gig might be worth it at $30 an hour but not at $20 (or whatever numbers we want to plug in). That makes sense when you're relying on music to pay the bills, but I don't get the impression that's the OP's case nor that of most of those posting here. I think musicians ought to be paid, certainly; if I wanted to play for free, I could just go to open mics and not worry about gigs at all. But that's for the dignity of it, and for extra spending money, not to buy the groceries. If we're going to turn it all into hourly rates, then we need to factor in lessons and practice time at home and all sorts of things and whatever hourly rate we get paid for music will just be depressing no matter what.


Even in cover bands that play their songs as much like "the record" as possible, I still say it's worth a run-through. The original recording of song X might have a fade-out ending - how do you conclude it live? Or, are you playing the album version or the single version of the song? Better not to have those things be surprises on the night of the gig.

 

[odin70]

If i say yes to a gig i also say yes to preperation either at home, at a rehersal or even better both. The problem here is not that they want a rehersal with you.. but the pay

 

[bluewine]

I would have said the same. See you at the gig, just call the key out to me before your start.

For $100.00 bar gig you should not have to rehearse.

blue

 

[fhm555]

Here you go.

According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, based on 2010 census data musicians nationwide earn a mean average of $30.22 an hour.

So about 3 hours and 20 minutes is all the average money only hired gun can afford to put into this job.

 

[Kmonk]

In my opinion, if you agree to do a fill in gig, you basically become a hired gun for the night and should do what the band asks, including rehearsals. Remember that it might not mean much to you but it is still their band and their reputation. Ask if rehearsals are expected before taking the gig.

 

[Dave W]

For me it depends on how familiar I am with the band. If I don't really know their style I would feel more comfortable doing a gig with a rehearsal under my belt first. It would be nice if it was a paid rehearsal. Sometimes it can be hard to really mesh and groove with a strange drummer.

At the end of the day my reputation is on the line and I want to make sure that the people hiring me feel good about the purchase. If you play well it can also lead to many other sub gigs. You never know who is in the audience watching or who the band knows.

 

[electracoyote]

If they play the songs like the most popular familiar original recording, no rehearsal necessary.

 

[two fingers]

So, it appears that there are two camps here.

Music Lovers - There are the people who love to play so much that getting paid $100 for a 4 hour bar gig, with an hour drive each way, an hour PA setup, and two rehearsals is just fine. "It's what is expected of you." These are people who have nothing better to do than play music. (I don't mean that as a slight. I simply mean that you put music so high on the list, that you ACTUALLY rank very little higher than playing music. And that's fine.)

The "if it is worth it" crowd - This is where I am. I love to play music. I really do. But I am a father of two young children and in school full time. I also have a couple of business irons in the fire as well. I only play music if it is worth the time. I don't NEED the money. But I REQUIRE it. My TIME (not playing music) is more valuable than the "great hang" of playing Mustang Sally at the bar Saturday night. I have been a bassist for over 25 years. I have literally played around 4,000 shows. So I don't HAVE to play. I don't have this deep seeded URGE to play as many do. So, no, I will not rehearse. If you need ME, and you called ME, then you know my reputation. You know I will show up prepared. End of story.

Neither camp is "wrong". It's just two kinds of players in two different places. I am not "letting you down" if I refuse to rehearse with you. Call somebody else if that is what you need. I will still love you come Tuesday if you give the gig to someone else. But for some here to get offended at the VERY IDEA that someone would have the AUDACITY to turn down a gig because of too much rehearsal (as if we are cocky #$$holes and think we are better than everybody else) is a bit over the top. I get it. Music is the biggest joy in your life. GREAT! Music is your passion. GREAT! Dump every waking hour into it for very little money. It is YOUR TIME after all. But, what I CHOOSE to do with MY TIME is not WRONG because it is different from what YOU would do.

Now, let's cover the topic of those who think I am being cocky if I say I am "too good to rehearse". Well, I am. (Hang on. I'll explain.)

I don't claim to be able to play any gig. I should not take a fill-in gig for a jazz fusion band because that is not my wheelhouse. I should not take a pit orchestra gig on upright. I play upright but not very well. I will turn down that gig because the amount of time it would take for me to prepare would make the gig impractical. I am openly admitting that I can not keep up on that kind of gig. That is why I turn them down.

But, if you are talking about ANYTHING rock, country, pop, soul, funk, R&B, blues etc. I assure you I have probably played it at some point. And if I haven't, it is still right up my alley and I can either nail it or fake it so good you won't know it.

After 25 YEARS of doing this, that shouldn't come as a shock to anyone. Speaking of shock, If you have been an electrician for 25 years, you shouldn't have to have a meeting (or two, or three) before showing up to every single job site. You should be able to show up and tackle pretty much anything with sparks running through it. (At least give me a thumbs up for a clever segue.) And I am an electrician as well. I have done commercial, residential, and industrial. I don't need to travel to the job site a bunch of times before you can let me at the task. I got it. Just point me at the tool shed and the blueprints and leave me alone to do the job. Same goes for playing bass. Just shoot me a list with keys and let me know if I need to sing lead or backups. I got it. If I hit a bump, I will tell you. (But I won't)

"It ain't bragging if you can back it up." - Jaco Pastorious

Thank you for indulging my annoyingly long post. Cheers to all in both camps.

 

[nojj]

I look at it this way *takes off sunglasses*
The most precious resource we have is TIME.
We are only alloted so much TIME before we're lowered into the ground in a pine box
with only our fav bass and some japanese porn to keep us company.

Besides our bass abilities, (and sheer personality) sub gigs are paying us for our time.
I do a lot of bar band sub gigs, the bulk of their material I know as well as the band.

Rehearsals will take time away from being with my family,
prevent me from handling the many home projects that crop up,
keep me from chatting up the waitresses at the coffee shop.
If they feel the need to rehearse, I'll expect to be comped.
I'm just as happy with a song list, the keys, and whatever they want me to sing.
If you juggle a couple bands/projects, and/or do a lot of sub work,
you probably don't want to be out every night of the week for free, and only get paid for the weekends.

The exceptions (for me) are bands who offer multiple shows (most of whom will be perfectly content with one practice)
and the higher-end situations, most of which won't have a problem recompensing their subs for designating a significant block of time.

 

[two fingers]

Tell it nojj!!!!

(Dang. And he said it all in less than half the words it took me. Not only that, but I left my stinking sunglasses on too. :scowl

 

[will33]

Flill-in = hired gun

Paid rehearsal time = yes, paid
Expecting unpaid rehearsal time = :scowl

No, I haven't read the rest of the thread and I don't care what it says,...the song remains the same.

 

[marmadaddy]

As I posted earlier in this thread, I'm in the "no unpaid rehearsal" camp for the situation OP describes. Every situation should be judged on it's own merits. Some call for rehearsal, some don't. For those who say that there should ALWAYS be a rehearsal, what about this:

Last night I was asked to play a double header with guys from an old band. Never played with the two guitar players though. Two gigs in one day later next month. I know most of their material. They're not gigs I'd typically do, but I like the guys. Thinking about this thread, I asked if they'd want me to rehearse and they said "If you're comfortable don't worry about it.". I am comfortable. Everyone's ok with it. I appreciate their confidence in me and they appreciate the fact that I'll show up prepared and turn in a solid performance.

 

[zephyr_words]

In my opinion, if you agree to do a fill in gig, you basically become a hired gun for the night and should do what the band asks, including rehearsals. Remember that it might not mean much to you but it is still their band and their reputation. Ask if rehearsals are expected before taking the gig.

Yeah, you become a hired gun for the night. If they want to hire you for another night then they need to hire your for another night.

Also, I wouldn't ask about a rehearsal being expected or not because it leads it open for negotiation/discussion. I would say, "Sure I'll take the gig. Rehearsals are X amount extra."

 

[Russell L]

Well, it just depends on so many things. Heck, I've subbed in big band reading gigs with no rehearsal. For low-paying bar band gigs I prefer not to rehearse, provided the list is stuff I know. But if I know the guys and feel like some comeraderie I might say ok to rehearsing, just for fun. Then, there are bands whose material is complicated, even if it is all covers. One band I left a few years ago is very, very hard to sub with for this reason. Most guys around here don't wanna sub with them. The main thing I need for a cover band sub gig, though, is to see the list and then a CD for stuff I don't know that I can ride around in the truck listening to. I usually get that, but sometimes not, in which case we'll just skip anything I'm not really up on. But generally, I'm not much into rehearsals. Sometimes I'll turn down a gig if I know they're gonna want to rehearse.

 

[fhm555]

...I also have a couple of business irons in the fire as well. I only play music if it is worth the time. I don't NEED the money. But I REQUIRE it...

BTDT got the t shirt. J/K

Now that I'm retired, I still have plenty irons in the fire because I'd go crazy if all I had to do every day was decide if I wanted to fish or hang with wifey, but trust me, I get it. I went many years just playing with family because my job required me to be on the road all the time so I'm well versed in the time versus income situation. I recently told someone I didn't buy old MIJ bikes and fix them up because I could make more in the same amount of time buying and restoring old blue water fishing tackle

As for the great hang, not my thing unless it's the same group of guys I've been playing with (off and on) for going on 20 years now. We've all taken breaks for work, family, health, hurt feelings, etc, but we always find our way back. I don't drink or smoke so if I do sub work these days it's" hi how are ya" when I get there. Prattle on about subject at hand on breaks, then "Had a great time, call if you need me, goodnight." and I'm gone.

At one time I was a total music whore and would be there as long as I had time between the phone call and start time to get there and plug in. It was always paying but I had a day job that paid commission so if I was having a good week or the door was slim, I'd give my cut to one of the regular band members for no other reason than the same had been done for me when I was a member of the hand to mouth club and I hope I never make the mistake of forgetting where I came from.

Like you I'm not a shingle hanging hired gun because I can't walk in and fill just any old pair of shoes. I can fake a lot of stuff and I've learned where to look in order to stay on the same page if it's a familiar style but a song I've never played, but there are certain styles I just never played and wouldn't know where to start without some time in the woodshed so I remain a happy armature who enjoys playing enough that if I get paid it's cool, but if I don't and the music is good it's also cool.

Now if it's a bunch of known dickheads, there is not enough money to entice me out. Well, maybe a number with a lot of trailing zeros, other than that it's not happening.

I think we need a third camp here. The retired old farts who will use a sub job as an excuse to get out of the house if such an excuse is called for.