Shuttle 6.0: Tube Grind diminished - Volume Retained?

[::::BASSIST::::]

First, from the manual:

PREAMP GAIN CONTROL – This control sets the input sensitivity gain of the 12AX7 TUBE preamp to the output of your bass. The volume of the signal is then controlled by the Tube Preamp Volume control and also the Master Volume control. If the red overload “OL” LED flashes, the tube preamp stage is being overdriven. To retain a clean tone, increase the Preamp and or Master Volume controls and reduce the Preamp Gain control to eliminate input preamp overload. Note that overdriving the input tube gain stage may be a desirable tonal characteristic of your playing style. This control, in conjunction with the Preamp/Master Volume controls, allows you to set the amount of tube overdrive your amp produces. For clean operation, the gain control should be set so that the O/L LED flashes with only the hardest notes played.

What I want to do is minimize the tube grind (like to zero would be good) but still retain as much overall volume as possible. I play roots rock/rockabilly with a p bass and flats. Furry fuzz is not what I want.

My bass is passive with NP4 pickups (not particularly 'hot'). With the preamp vol control at maximum, how high can I turn up the gain before the fuzz starts... 10:00, possibly 12:00?

How much overall volume am I losing by trying to run the amp 'fuzz free'... 20%, 30%, more?

I know these are all 'pie in the sky' numbers. I'm just trying to get a ball park idea. I really like the tone of this amp, once I have the eq set-up, but I need it to be loud AND fuzz free.

 

[Ozbass]

First, from the manual:



What I want to do is minimize the tube grind (like to zero would be good) but still retain as much overall volume as possible. I play roots rock/rockabilly with a p bass and flats. Furry fuzz is not what I want.

My bass is passive with NP4 pickups (not particularly 'hot'). With the preamp vol control at maximum, how high can I turn up the gain before the fuzz starts... 10:00, possibly 12:00?

How much overall volume am I losing by trying to run the amp 'fuzz free'... 20%, 30%, more?

I know these are all 'pie in the sky' numbers. I'm just trying to get a ball park idea. I really like the tone of this amp, once I have the eq set-up, but I need it to be loud AND fuzz free.

I too would love to hear from Shuttle owners if the Shuttle can do Loud and Clean thru the Neox212...as this is the rig I am contemplating

 

[Fretless5verfan]

I too would love to hear from Shuttle owners if the Shuttle can do Loud and Clean thru the Neox212...as this is the rig I am contemplating

I play active basses with 9v OPB3s and Nordstrand pick-ups. I keep the gain at noon (a little less if i'm really diggin') with the pre-amp volume maxed out. I get no grind whatsoever and an awesome warm and clean tone...with TONS of volume to spare.

 

[KJung]

I play active basses with 9v OPB3s and Nordstrand pick-ups. I keep the gain at noon (a little less if i'm really diggin') with the pre-amp volume maxed out. I get no grind whatsoever and an awesome warm and clean tone...with TONS of volume to spare.

Just FYI.. the OB-3 has a VERY low output relative to most other preamps (9 or 18 doesn't matter with the output level of the OB-3.

Tons of volume to spare is also relative. The question is... can the 6.0 reach 'full output' with a totally clean tone (loudness requirements vary greatly from user to user, obviously). My experience is no (even with the secondary gain maxed), but it's kind of a moot point, since those who really want a totally clean, even tone at all volume levels would probably not purchase a hybrid head.... they put that tube in there for a reason!

Also, one person's 'clean' is another person's 'sterile' and yet another persons 'wooly'

 

[Michael Vee]

What Ken Jung said, and one.

The clean recipe for the Neo-Pak/Shuttle 6.0 is to set the preamp gain to a point where it starts flashing red while playing hard on low notes, then back down the gain until it stops flashing. Maybe go back one or two more notches from there. Compensate by turning UP the preamp volume- don't be afraid to turn this all the way up if need be, as long as it doesn't distort the EQ section. EQ section distortion sounds like really bad farty solid state distortion! If need be, back up the preamp gain a bit more. Then use the master volume to get the output level you need with the speakers you're using.

You may have already tried this, but I wanted to ask if you've tried going higher on the preamp volume. When going for a cleaner, less tube sound, I've turned it all the way up when playing with a lower-output, passive bass.

Also, you may want to try using an outboard preamp or pedal. I've used a Seymour Duncan SFX-01 Pickup Booster to front both my Neo-Pak and now my Shuttle to bring up the output of my passive basses and give me an additional gain control in the chain.

Bottom line with the Shuttle 6 is that it will always have some amount of tube character, regardless of settings. The signal runs through a tube preamp, so it's inherent. It's like an Alembic F-1X in that you can get very clean tones out of the F-1X, but it won't ever sound exactly like a Trace Elliot, or some other solid state preamp. If you want crystal clear SS tone, the 6.0 doesn't do that. But it does clean up well with the right settings. I doubt that, in a live setting, most audience members would be able to tell the difference in the Shuttle 6.0 run cleaner, and a completely SS head.

Torin, I agree also with Ken in that for the kind of music you're playing, you wouldn't want tube grind, but you also don't need SS clean either. How does the Shuttle 6.0 sound with the bands you're playing with?

 

[kaiser_sosea]

don't be afraid to crank the preamp volume and reduce the preamp gain, this should give you a very clean sound w/ very high volume which is why i believe the preamp was designed in this fashion rather than just gain and master, you can truly dial in our out as much tube as you'd like, this it w/ my NeoPak btw...

 

[Michael Vee]

This isn't really what Torin is after, and would probably be overkill for most Shuttle 6 players, but one could also rig up an A/B/Y switch to send A to the Shuttle 6 input, and B to send to an alternate SS preamp (such as the SFX-01 pedal I mentioned previously) and from there to the effects return.

That would give the player a choice of the tube preamp of the Shuttle, and an SS preamp driving the SS power section directly.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

Just FYI.. the OB-3 has a VERY low output relative to most other preamps (9 or 18 doesn't matter with the output level of the OB-3.

I haven't really noticed much of a difference between my aggie pre output, sadowsky pre output, or bart output. Is it a big enough difference to notice?

Tons of volume to spare is also relative. The question is... can the 6.0 reach 'full output' with a totally clean tone

And the answer is obviously no by design, which is why i said that I had plenty of volume to spare.

Also, one person's 'clean' is another person's 'sterile' and yet another persons 'wooly'

No fuzz is no fuzz man.

 

[KJung]

I haven't really noticed much of a difference between my aggie pre output, sadowsky pre output, or bart output. Is it a big enough difference to notice?



And the answer is obviously no by design, which is why i said that I had plenty of volume to spare.



No fuzz is no fuzz man.

+1 to all of the above. I find the OB-3 output noticeably lower than the Sadowsky pre, but again, that's what the gain control is for. I really only brought it up regarding the noon setting you use on the pre gain control. My guess is, with some other pre's, that 'clean' setting would be closer to 9 o'clock or so. It shouldn't make an 'absolute difference'.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

+1 to all of the above. I find the OB-3 output noticeably lower than the Sadowsky pre, but again, that's what the gain control is for. I really only brought it up regarding the noon setting you use on the pre gain control. My guess is, with some other pre's, that 'clean' setting would be closer to 9 o'clock or so. It shouldn't make an 'absolute difference'.

Yea I was just tossing up my settings as an idea. Sometimes what I do to switch between a borderline grindy tone and a cleaner one is to pop out the pre-map bypass. Makes just enough difference sometimes.

 

[tallboybass]

OK, I've got to share my settings. If minimizing tube grind is what you're looking for....I usually set the Shuttle....over on the couch and get the SD800.

Sorry.



I'm standing in the corner now.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

What Ken Jung said, and one.

The clean recipe for the Neo-Pak/Shuttle 6.0 is to set the preamp gain to a point where it starts flashing red while playing hard on low notes, then back down the gain until it stops flashing. Maybe go back one or two more notches from there. Compensate by turning UP the preamp volume- don't be afraid to turn this all the way up if need be, as long as it doesn't distort the EQ section. EQ section distortion sounds like really bad farty solid state distortion! If need be, back up the preamp gain a bit more. Then use the master volume to get the output level you need with the speakers you're using.

You may have already tried this, but I wanted to ask if you've tried going higher on the preamp volume. When going for a cleaner, less tube sound, I've turned it all the way up when playing with a lower-output, passive bass.

Also, you may want to try using an outboard preamp or pedal. I've used a Seymour Duncan SFX-01 Pickup Booster to front both my Neo-Pak and now my Shuttle to bring up the output of my passive basses and give me an additional gain control in the chain.

Bottom line with the Shuttle 6 is that it will always have some amount of tube character, regardless of settings. The signal runs through a tube preamp, so it's inherent. It's like an Alembic F-1X in that you can get very clean tones out of the F-1X, but it won't ever sound exactly like a Trace Elliot, or some other solid state preamp. If you want crystal clear SS tone, the 6.0 doesn't do that. But it does clean up well with the right settings. I doubt that, in a live setting, most audience members would be able to tell the difference in the Shuttle 6.0 run cleaner, and a completely SS head.

Torin, I agree also with Ken in that for the kind of music you're playing, you wouldn't want tube grind, but you also don't need SS clean either. How does the Shuttle 6.0 sound with the bands you're playing with?

Thanks for the advice guys.

I was playing with the preamp vol control at maximum and the gain around noon. That was working pretty well. My master vol. was at noon. The manual says its best not to go beyond 3:00, so that's not much wiggle room.

Another thing I have thought of is replacing the driver in the UL115 with a 4 ohm. There is a nice B&C driver that I have in mind. But its a bit of a trade-off decision as I dont mind changing the tone of the cab *a little bit*, but I really like it the way it is. To get all 600w it would be worth it to me though. And I know I could add another cab, but I really want to use a single cab these days.

Micheal, adding a gain stage to the amp might help? So walk me thru this... I'd turn down the gain on the amp, keep the preamp vol control at maximum and use the external gain source as a way to increase the vol. Wouldn't this just 'drive' the tube causing the grind? I'm interested. Just trying to figure out where you're going with this.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Torin, I agree also with Ken in that for the kind of music you're playing, you wouldn't want tube grind, but you also don't need SS clean either. How does the Shuttle 6.0 sound with the bands you're playing with?

The shuttle sounds great with my band's roots rock style... as long as I run it clean. Running it clean minimizes the amp's overall volume output. Wherein lies my problem.

Just for the record, I dont mind the tube character at all, I just dont want fuzz.

 

[12bass]

I don't have a Shuttle, but it seems to me that maximizing clean volume would entail leaving the master volume wide open, the preamp volume wide open, then adjusting the input gain to set the overall volume. This arrangement may lead to more hiss, but should give the least distortion from the tube.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Good suggestion. I'll try that.

 

[Michael Vee]

Torin, how loud are the two bands you are working with?

A Shuttle 6.0 set to what you are saying you are using would put out some serious power.

Although a single 15" like the UL115 would get very loud with 250-300 watts, you would need multiple drivers or cabs if you need that much additional volume. Maybe you could run two UL115s for 4 ohms, if you like the sound of the Epifanis.

Or you might be very happy running the Shuttle into something mega-efficient like the BFM Omni 15.

My take on it is two Bag End S15s stacked. I know you didn't like the S15-D you had, but you should hear two of them driven by a Shuttle cranked!

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Actually, I have thought about the shuttle and s15d combo. If there was one nearby to demo I'd like to try it, but I am not willing to buy one off the net to see... what is what I would have to do.

Currently just in the one band. We are not that loud, but its always best to have lots of vol at your disposal rather than the other way around.

I'd love to try two UL115s but its just not in the budget at this time. Nor could I get them both in my car. I have a UL112 in transit and I know that would solve all the vol issues. We have an outdoor show coming up in July and I know that the two cab setup will be necessary. However, I really prefer to haul one cab.

Two UL115s would just be heaven though!

 

[thejohnkim]

if youre struggling with just a fraction of the gain control, and want some more breathing room. i'd recommend a tube swap to something like a JAN Philips 5751. The tube itself has less gain, but i think the clean tone and extended physical knob 'turnage' while remaining clean on the preamp might be worth it, if you want to eek out every last drop of clean tone from a preamp tube front end. you'll be able to fine tune the gain knob a bit more while keeping the grit off the grid for another 'o'clock' or 2.

its not going to be a huge upgrade in terms of clean volume, but i recommend it because it usually is a nice upgrade in terms of clean tone, depending on what the manufacturer is using as its stock tubes.

Other than a JAN Philips 5751, I like Tung Sol 12AX7's and Ei Gold tubes, and i have been having bad experiences with EHX tubes (tone suck in the upper mids) and have yet to try enough JJ tubes to have any opinion on those.

-my 1 cent

 

[fear_n_greed]

I think it's pretty ez to get a no grind sound. My gains at 10 o 'clock, volume at 4 o'clock, all the eqs are about 3-4 o'clock, master is where you want it.
I did raise the pickups a little bit and that really got the volumes up overall.
The little shuttle is a giant to my ears....
I've got it going though 2 Bag End 15's drop by our next show and you can hear it for yourself.

 

[unclekebm]

I too would love to hear from Shuttle owners if the Shuttle can do Loud and Clean thru the Neox212...as this is the rig I am contemplating

it can...i use that rig with a passive P in a loud 5pc band...
master volume around noon,
loud, thick and even tone