Shuttle 6.0: Tube Grind diminished - Volume Retained?

[::::BASSIST::::]

I think it's pretty ez to get a no grind sound. My gains at 10 o 'clock, volume at 4 o'clock, all the eqs are about 3-4 o'clock, master is where you want it.
I did raise the pickups a little bit and that really got the volumes up overall.
The little shuttle is a giant to my ears....
I've got it going though 2 Bag End 15's drop by our next show and you can hear it for yourself.

Thanks! I might just do that.

 

[Eublet]

Just turn the gain down enough so that you get zero or very slight flashing on your lowest, hardest played notes while you are performing. When you do this, can you not clip the output on the head? That's just hard for me to imagine. I have used the Shuttle with a couple of low-output basses, and while I can't get a lot of tube grind going on them, it's still easy to clip the output and get full volume out of the head. VERY easy.

For that matter, if you can clip the input gain, then you should be able to clip the output. I don't know how "clean" you are looking for, but the tube in the pre is always going to add a bit of harmonic overtone. Some people call this grit, but IMO it is not. It's just the sound of a tube. Grit is what happens when the tube starts to saturate for me. If you don't like that harmonic content, then you might be better off with a SS/FET preamp.

Also, you could try boosting the EQ across the board a few notches, which affects the input gain, then turn gain down a bit more. Still, unless you have a malfunctioning input clip LED, you shouldn't have any heavy grit going if that light is not flashing, just the overtones from the tube.

 

[Jorgemele894]

Hi there:

You might also change the preamp tube for a “cleaner” one. I replaced the 3 stock 12AX7 tubes in my SVT4Pro with tung-sol’s 12AX7 gold pins tubes (forgot the model number) and they gave me the cleanest sound I have ever heard on a tube preamp head (SWR kind of clean). The best thing is that if you don’t like it you can change it back to stock.

George

 

[Michael Vee]

Well said, Jason.

Torin, the whole deal is the signal chain. Everything is a part of your sound, from your strings, to your pickups/electronics, to your amp head, to your speakers, and your technique.

It's obvious you are very discerning as a bassist, as you've been through a LOT of gear the last few years looking for that magic tone for you.

Sometimes, the best thing a discerning bassist can do is to be patient with the gear he or she has and keep playing it for a while until the light comes on on how to make that particular combination of gear work with what he or she wants to do as a bass player with the band that he or she is in!

Sorry for all the he/she'isms, but it's all about the wholistic thang..

The Shuttle 6.0 coupled with the very efficient Bag S15s rocks!!

 

[Michael Vee]

Jorgemele894: Torin (and the rest of us) are discussing the tone of the Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.0 head (or Neo-pak 3.5), not an Ampeg circuit, which is totally different!


Hasbeen and Agedhorse have somewhat been out of the loop this past week, but I do remember that both of them noted a while back that the choice of preamp tube does not significantly alter the tone of the Shuttle 6.0/Neo-Pak 3.5 preamp circuit.

 

[Jorgemele894]

Jorgemele894: Torin (and the rest of us) are discussing the tone of the Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.0 head (or Neo-pak 3.5), not an Ampeg circuit, which is totally different!


Hasbeen and Agedhorse have somewhat been out of the loop this past week, but I do remember that both of them noted a while back that the choice of preamp tube does not significantly alter the tone of the Shuttle 6.0/Neo-Pak 3.5 preamp circuit.

I understand that the circuits are different, however it was just a suggestion. If it worked for the SVT4Pro it might work for the Genz 6.0 as well. In addition it is a cheap experiment and the fact that it didn’t work for other guys doesn’t mean that it won’t work for the other fellow Tber.

George

 

[Crabby]

Funny, my Navigator has a single tube pre amp and its known to not make much of a difference if the tube is changed as well. My Shuttle sure sounds clean to me with both inputs volumes around noon. I found however, that there is a lot of volume in the tube gain knob to be had when adjusting it from noon to around 2 oclock.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Well said, Jason.

Torin, the whole deal is the signal chain. Everything is a part of your sound, from your strings, to your pickups/electronics, to your amp head, to your speakers, and your technique.

It's obvious you are very discerning as a bassist, as you've been through a LOT of gear the last few years looking for that magic tone for you.

Sometimes, the best thing a discerning bassist can do is to be patient with the gear he or she has and keep playing it for a while until the light comes on on how to make that particular combination of gear work with what he or she wants to do as a bass player with the band that he or she is in!

Sorry for all the he/she'isms, but it's all about the wholistic thang..

The Shuttle 6.0 coupled with the very efficient Bag S15s rocks!!

I hear ya. My gear hunt hasnt just been about tone, but form factor too. I now know that I only want to use a single large size cab (well, large sounding anyway) and will only use a micro sized head. The LMII is a keeper to me. I also know that I don't want a cab over 50LBS. I have 5 gigs in July and I really dont like moving heavy gear. I play bass, not move 'furniture'

Edit: I also should note that I have only gigged the shuttle twice and have virtually no experience with tube amps... hence my apparent idiocy.

 

[Jorgemele894]

Funny, my Navigator has a single tube pre amp and its known to not make much of a difference if the tube is changed as well. My Shuttle sure sounds clean to me with both inputs volumes around noon. I found however, that there is a lot of volume in the tube gain knob to be had when adjusting it from noon to around 2 oclock.

Well, it seems to be 3 vs 1, therefore I retire my suggestion. I played the Genz 6.0 and it sounded very clean to me too (not as clean as my iamp800 but cleaner than my ex SVT4Pro for sure), I loved the little thing and it is at the top of my GAS list.

George

 

[Eublet]

A hybrid head typically displays minimal differences in swapping tubes. I can't say for sure if the Shuttle will have a noticealbe change or not.

If you aren't used to tubes, I suggest you just keep spending some time with the head to determine if you like it or not. Tubes are indeed a different world. Still, I find that the Shuttle can do a very clean tone, although it's definitely a "tube" clean. It won't sound as clean as an SS design, but it will have stuff "going on" inside the notes. People who love this refer to it often as warmth, and they even describe it as "smooth". People who don't like it call it tend to describe it as grit, which to me is a bit disengenious as grit is more of a light distortion that occurs as you push the gain.

On every Genz head I've owned (1200, Neo-pak, Shuttle 6.0), the grit starts kicking in when the red input clip starts flashing a bit. This is a VERY cool feature as it gives you a bit of indication on what's going on with the tube. Backing off just a bit at this point will clean up the tone and provide you with the buttery tone that is typical of a hybrid design. I suggest you do that, and if after time you still don't care for it, then it's back to SS heads.

Also, IMO, doing constant A/B comparisons with a SS head will prolong your acclimation to the tube tone. I would suggest your forget about what your LMII sounds like and what it does, along with any other head you have. Just see if the Shuttle works for you after a few gigs. You may find that you like it, and that you learn to appreciate the differences between the LMII and the Shuttle. More generally, you'll grow to appreciate the differences in tube designs and find very specific applications for them. I LOVE my Shuttle for finger funk, Tower of Power, old school Earth, Wind, Fire, Kool and the Gang, etc. It works much better than an SS/FET design to me. When I play modern gospel, I want FET punch and growl. That's not to say I'm not happy switching roles there, but I do find the differences contribute to the genres in a way that pleases me, which is what is most important.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Thanks Ebulet. I definitely need to spend more time with it. However, I also want to see if my LMII sounds as good with my UL115 as the shuttle did, so I'm bringing that to the next gig. I have a rehearsal this Friday so maybe I'll just bring the LMII there. I am very curious.

I am definitely going to try the limiter flashing as a point to back down. Cant say for sure, but as long as there is no fuzz, I think the tube tone is pretty dang cool at this point.

 

[Eublet]

My point is that the LMII will likely sound "as good or better" to you since you are used to the tone. You might have to give the Shuttle a chance to sink in and prove itself without confusing your ears with competing products. I've found I can like most anything this way, and have learned to incorporate different sounds into what I find enjoyable. Sometimes comparing two things side-by-side, or even gig-by-gig, isn't going to prove anything except that you think you liked one item better for that time/gig based on your mood/experience that could be drastically affected by God knows what.

IMHO.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Ya I know what you mean. Sometimes its best to let your ears adjust.

There are so many variables that effect sound. The last venue I played with the UL115 + shuttle, the bass tone was really good. The previous time I played that exact same venue with the LMII + 1212R and I had to do alot of knob turning... wasnt that happy with the result. I think that particular stage sucks up the bass, which doesnt make sense as its a wooden stage. Then again they had those glass bricks on the wall directly behind us so that may have played a role.

 

[Eublet]

I think that particular stage sucks up the bass, which doesnt make sense as its a wooden stage. Then again they had those glass bricks on the wall directly behind us so that may have played a role.

That makes a ton of sense and plays a HUGE role. Wooden stages can be an acoustical nightmare. The couple with the cabinet and vibrate. The space underneath acts as a passive radiator and makes for all kinds of boominess. Add the glass wall behind you, and it's a pretty horrid environment. I wouldn't judge any head in a room like that unless you've played there many times and can use the head to make it workable. It's not a place I'd use to judge tone.

Cabinet isolation can work miracles on wooden stages. An Aurelex Gramma, homemade foam platform, and even casters or a good ol' milk crate to get your cab up off the stage 4-12" and reduce sympathetic vibrations can really make a drastic difference.

 

[sonicnuance]

A hybrid head typically displays minimal differences in swapping tubes. I can't say for sure if the Shuttle will have a noticealbe change or not.

If you aren't used to tubes, I suggest you just keep spending some time with the head to determine if you like it or not. Tubes are indeed a different world. Still, I find that the Shuttle can do a very clean tone, although it's definitely a "tube" clean. It won't sound as clean as an SS design, but it will have stuff "going on" inside the notes. People who love this refer to it often as warmth, and they even describe it as "smooth". People who don't like it call it tend to describe it as grit, which to me is a bit disengenious as grit is more of a light distortion that occurs as you push the gain.

On every Genz head I've owned (1200, Neo-pak, Shuttle 6.0), the grit starts kicking in when the red input clip starts flashing a bit. This is a VERY cool feature as it gives you a bit of indication on what's going on with the tube. Backing off just a bit at this point will clean up the tone and provide you with the buttery tone that is typical of a hybrid design. I suggest you do that, and if after time you still don't care for it, then it's back to SS heads.

Also, IMO, doing constant A/B comparisons with a SS head will prolong your acclimation to the tube tone. I would suggest your forget about what your LMII sounds like and what it does, along with any other head you have. Just see if the Shuttle works for you after a few gigs. You may find that you like it, and that you learn to appreciate the differences between the LMII and the Shuttle. More generally, you'll grow to appreciate the differences in tube designs and find very specific applications for them. I LOVE my Shuttle for finger funk, Tower of Power, old school Earth, Wind, Fire, Kool and the Gang, etc. It works much better than an SS/FET design to me. When I play modern gospel, I want FET punch and growl. That's not to say I'm not happy switching roles there, but I do find the differences contribute to the genres in a way that pleases me, which is what is most important.

One good way to A/B this I have found is using the DI into a small mixer with headphones (unplug the speaker out of the shuttle to hear things clearer) and toggling the PRE/POST switch. Make sure to set the preamp volume such that there isn't a volume difference in doing so as this will affect your perception.

When I do this I find the tube adds WAY more character than I would have imagined when running clean (I also don't like grind).

I'm very glad Genz Benz decided to put a tube in there. I'm sold on the tube sound.

Having a "tubeable" DI is kinda cool too (for the record, I usually run eq flat except for a bit of twiddling with the mid control)!

 

[Fretlessboy]

I know I am late to the party but I have had to work to get the non clean sound when I neeed it. Now granted, I am playing JO5's with Fralins, but I haven't been able to get real grindy sound out of it unless I go JO >Sadowsky outboard pre > Shuttle.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Here's an update...

I find that the shuttle won't work for what I want to do. There are a few songs per night that I want to play with a pick (for speed, not tone). In order to fatten up the pick tone I use a Behringer ADI21, which really works well at achieving a finger tone from a pick... sure its not the same, but its close. When I use the ADI21 and play with a pick it boosts the gain of the shuttle to the point where I am no longer getting a clean tone. Not good. I've tried adjusting the 'level' of the ADI21, but it still didn't work. I think if I took the time to futz around with the ADI21 and shuttle long enough I could find a setting that would be passable. However, in a gigging situation, I dont want to be standing there turning dials, I want to be playing.

So my conclusion is that, as nice as the shuttle is, it just won't work for me on gigs.

 

[seamonkey]

I was wondering why GB didn't put a "blend" control on the tube so you could bypass it if you wanted. Seems a little crazy to have a high quality signal path to a ICEpower amp that only gives you one choice. Oh well, maybe next generation.

 

[Fretlessboy]

Well I believe this is why the GBE1200 and GBE750 exist with 2 channels, an FET and a tube. This question in reverse was asked about the Shuttle 3.0 only having FET with out being able to get the tube grit of the 6.0. Most likely why there are different models with different applications.

 

[Fretlessboy]

Since there is apparently that much boost coming from the Berringer, could you roll back the volume on the bass to even it out?

Here's an update...

I find that the shuttle won't work for what I want to do. There are a few songs per night that I want to play with a pick (for speed, not tone). In order to fatten up the pick tone I use a Behringer ADI21, which really works well at achieving a finger tone from a pick... sure its not the same, but its close. When I use the ADI21 and play with a pick it boosts the gain of the shuttle to the point where I am no longer getting a clean tone. Not good. I've tried adjusting the 'level' of the ADI21, but it still didn't work. I think if I took the time to futz around with the ADI21 and shuttle long enough I could find a setting that would be passable. However, in a gigging situation, I dont want to be standing there turning dials, I want to be playing.

So my conclusion is that, as nice as the shuttle is, it just won't work for me on gigs.