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Shuttle 9.0?

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#621
rpsands said:
Just to seriously clarify here if you don't have a great subsonic filter an open E could destroy a 3015LF at super high wattage. If I said "continuous" I probably meant "RMS" because despite the excursion abilities of the 3015LF it could very well cook the voice coil if you sent a 900w sine wave through it for a while.

Based on my modeling anyway, it takes around 900w to cause the driver to exceed xmax if you use a 4th order high pass @ 32hz or so. There is a lot of wiggle room after that because the Xlim on the 3015LF is quite high.

To exceed Xlim of 17.0mm requires close to 2100 watts.

Assuming winisd can be trusted :)

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That said, a 3015LF/6nd410 cab should be at a real 120db or so by the time you are shoving a 500w signal into it. Going up to 1000w only gets you up to 123db.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a shuttle 9.0 with a fEarful as my main rig and be comfortable with it holding up against guitar combos and amplified drums.

To give some paper comparisons, your the 15/6 cabinet is about as sensitive as an average 4x10 cabinet (~100db) and far more sensitive off-axis above like 600-800hz or so where the 4x10 starts to lose its offaxis response.
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I have yet to see a lightweight amp that puts out 900 watts into 8 ohms but perhaps I have not opened my eyes.:D
 
#622
rpsands said:
That said, a 3015LF/6nd410 cab should be at a real 120db or so by the time you are shoving a 500w signal into it. Going up to 1000w only gets you up to 123db.
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Amazing. So, how loud is 120 decibels? Based on one source at http://www.abelard.org/hear/hear.php, this range is instructive:

90 db is a heavy truck @ 15m, a passing motorcycle, lawn mower

100 db is a jet takeoff at 500m, train horn @ 30m, or a pneumatic drill/jackhammer (64x as loud as 90db)

105 db is a helicopter, power mower

110-130 db is amplified rock music (over 128 to 512 times as loud as 105 db), and can damage hearing after 3.75 - 30 minutes exposure each day

120 db is a car horn, propeller aircraft, air-raid siren (256 times as loud as 110 db), and can damage hearing after 7.5 minutes of exposure per day

130 db is a military jet, shotgun, hydraulic press 3m away (512 times as loud as 120 db), can damage hearing aftger 3.75 minutes of exposure per day

Food for thought as we pile these watts into our hi-octane cabs. Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!!!!
 
#623
Ukiah Bass said:
+1 In fact, those with power-sucking 8 ohm cabs like the fEarful design & LDS will probably find 500 watts is not enough. 700, 1000 watts, or more will drive more pronounced results. Alex Claber said in one post that he wouldn't be scared of using a 1000-2000W power amp on those models. Greenboy mentions using 700-800 watts into the woofer. RPSands told me the widely-used Emminence 3015LF should handle a continuous signal of 900 watts without damage (and a subsonic filter), with peaks of 1800W.
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Ah, but you see, the fEarful, Barefaced cabs...aren't "power hungry" as you suggest.

Inefficient cabs like Acmes ARE power hungry. They need more wattage to get the same volume, and while they can take the extra wattage, you really NEED it to make them sing.

The 15/6 I have is well braced and designed, and screamin' loud. Thus it's actually more efficient than many cabs. It doesn't need the extra wattage, but obviously CAN take pretty much anything you throw at it. In fact, its arguable that it does better on less wattage than many cabs because its so sensitive to EQ that you need much less. I've rolled my lows back by quite a large percentage and get more lows out of the cab (and more mids and highs if I want)...so my amp is working less hard than I did with my Berg/Schroeder rig where I had to crank the lows to get the booty from the cabs.
 
#624
If you're using an 8x10 and you go to a 15/6 you're going to need double the wattage you had going into your 8x10 to get the same perceived output. That's one big situation where people will think the fEarful is "power hungry."

Obviously under 100hz the 15/6 rapidly gains the sensitivity edge, probably by around 70-80hz.

Even the better 6x10s are often 3-6db more sensitive than the fEarful above 100hz.

But, almost no 4x10s are appreciably louder per watt. Those that are are maybe 3db louder.
 
#625
Beware that cumulative damage can occur between Xmax and Xlim (or Xmech). You have exceeded the linear limits ofthe mechanical components of the speaker, and while you may not bang the bobbin on the backplate or hop the gap, that doesn't mean that you are not tearing the fibers in the spider and surround.
 
#626
agedhorse said:
Beware that cumulative damage can occur between Xmax and Xlim (or Xmech). You have exceeded the linear limits ofthe mechanical components of the speaker, and while you may not bang the bobbin on the backplate or hop the gap, that doesn't mean that you are not tearing the fibers in the spider and surround.
Click to expand...

...............But I think some layman's terms are in need! :eyebrow:
 
#627
Laredo said:
...............But I think some layman's terms are in need! :eyebrow:
Click to expand...

Sorry...

Xmax is the maximum LINEAR displacement that a speaker can operate within. Beyond this is Xlim or Xmech (depending on how old you are) which is the maximum displacement before mechanical damage. Generally, this is the point that the bottom of the bobbin (that the voice coil is wound on) hits the back plate (bottom of the speaker, hence the slang term "bottoming out", but there is a lot of additional stress placed on the spider, surround and cone edge as you exceed Xmax but before you get to the gut wrenching sound of Xlim. The fibers that make up the spider, will begin to tear and lose their elasticproperties. The ultimate result is that the spider loses (drops) it's spring effect and becomes floppy. The parameters that govern the interaction of the driver and the box are definately affected (reducing performance) and the only solution is reconing or replacement of the drivers.

How's this, any better?
 
#629
UncleBalsamic said:
I might be getting a shuttle 9 and using it with Alex's new Barefaced Double Midget T. 4 ohms of 212 loveliness. It might even be louder than the Big One, but I'm not sure about that.
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It will be louder (by virtue of not going as low). See attached specs!

Alex
 

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#630
agedhorse said:
Beware that cumulative damage can occur between Xmax and Xlim (or Xmech). You have exceeded the linear limits ofthe mechanical components of the speaker, and while you may not bang the bobbin on the backplate or hop the gap, that doesn't mean that you are not tearing the fibers in the spider and surround.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why anybody would seriously consider the travel beyond xmax as anything but a safety zone anyway. Here you have a driver with huge xmax. It's one of the few drivers that translates well into bass guitar use whose excursion limits actually exceeds its thermal limits. So figuring travel well beyond xmax as part of one's normal use is just crazy. 3015LF has so much capacity well within xmax bounds.

As far as the power-hungry nonsense some people spout, the 3015LF has higher sensitivity than a lot of other 15" drivers with nowhere near its excursion and LF capacities. Where do people get all these dumb ideas? You'd think the constant educational posts here on talkbass would clue people in about sensitivity specs, power handling on thermal and excursion terms... Just because a single woofer can handle a lot of watts does NOT make it power hungry. Acmes are power hungry, with their low sensitivity.
 
#634
Question for Agedhorse or Hasbeen: If you were using two 6's or two 9's to drive two stacked 4 ohm cabs, would you put the two amps side by side or on top of each other? Reason I ask is that there are cooling vents on the side (fan) and on top (pre-tube) which would be partially blocked. Seems either configuration could be problematic.

Thx.
 
#635
bucephylus said:
Question for Agedhorse or Hasbeen: If you were using two 6's or two 9's to drive two stacked 4 ohm cabs, would you put the two amps side by side or on top of each other? Reason I ask is that there are cooling vents on the side (fan) and on top (pre-tube) which would be partially blocked. Seems either configuration could be problematic.

Thx.
Click to expand...

on top of eachother.

Our amps are very "thermal" sensitive. They are tested in the HOT Arizona sun. They just don't like it when you block the vents.
 
#637
bucephylus said:
That's a good thing because I use them in the HOT Arizona sun.;)

So, just to be clear, blocking the preamp tube vent on the top doesn't cause any issues?
Click to expand...

you're good to go......rack 'em, smack 'em, stack 'em.

The tube "vent" is mostly cosmetic.
 
#638
If you do need to putthem side by side, be sure you leave at least 2.5 inches (7cm) of clearance between the units for fan/duct vents.
 
#640
edfriedland said:
I've been a very satisfied 6.0 user for as long as they've been on the market, and I will tell you that the 9.0 has the same out of the box great tone without a lot of twiddling. It IS beefier when set flat, and is considerably louder than the 6.0. I tried to capture the sheer volume of it, but I couldn't get it to Protools without major clipping in the recorded sound. But as I was cranking it up, books and cds were falling off my shelves, and my stomach felt like it was going to spontaneously empty! This is one loud puppy.
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Thanks Mr.Ed for your taking the time to enlighten us....I bought my Shuttle 6.0 combo based on your recommendation,(that it was fine for like 90% of your gigs) I really liked the part when you picked it up with one hand.

It was down to the Phil Jones or Genz Benz......

I am very satisfied with the Shuttle 6.0 and adding the extension speaker......just perfect.
Can't justify upgrading to a new amp.


Once again thanks for your high valued input on this gear....

Also I have your MOST excellent book/cd's.....can't imagine life without those extremely helpful aids.

Great work and best of luck in A town......

willieG

WillieG
 
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