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Simandl on bass guitar

#41
As someone who started on upright, I learned Simandl first and find it to be equally efficient -- and more natural -- on electric, even fretless. And there are definitely limits to the one-finger-per "fret," as you'll see around 5:34 of this video. Having to say "That hurts my hand" and shaking it is not the way to go. I completely agree with Lobster11's reference to Scott Devine's advice about using the one finger per fret when it makes sense but not when it doesn't.
 
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#42
It’s funny. I definitely have an easier time mentally organizing the fretboard with a OFPF approach (including the five fret stretch/pivot) for reading and playing without looking at my fretting hand, no doubt about it. I’ve also found that narrowing down the number af fingering patterns I’m using helps me keep my place. I’ve taken a “there’s benefits to knowing both approaches / all fingerings” in learning but often wonder if this has hindered my progress...in that I flip flop too much and don’t stick with one approach long enough to get it fully engrained. A bit of overthinking and over complicating on my part going on for sure.
 
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#43
Wasnex said:
I agree that forcing OFPF on every player without considering their physiology is irresponsible. On a related note, Some TB members have described what I would call a hybrid fingering system. All four fingers are used, but not as OFPF. Instead microshifts are used to avoid hyprextending the hand...this generates unusual, but potentially useful fingering patterns and shifts that I would never have considered since I tend to alternate between Simandl or OFPF.
Click to expand...

I’m one of those who uses and promotes the microshifting technique. I wouldn’t say that I use it to the exclusion of OFPF and Simandl, because I definitely use both of those depending on the musical material and where I am on the fretboard.

In fact I’d say that the microshifting happens for me when using both OFPF and Simandl. Like many others, I’m usually using Simandl when below the 5th fret, and more specifically when the index finger is anchored to the E string low F. Shifting allows me to grab the Ab, Db, F#, and B on the 4th fret while maintaining Simandl.

But when I’m using OFPF (and to be clear, there are times I use OFPF below the 5th fret) the microshifting technique is more in line with what guitarists are taught: OFPF covering a span of four frets, but the index and pinky can shift outward at any time to allow a total range of six frets to be covered at any time.
 
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#44
The micro shifting thing definitely seems key to playing using either approach. So many pro players seem to advocate OFPF.....I imagine that they must have worked through (or still struggle with) some physical issues, and/or have worked this subtle shifting into their technique (or maybe not).

I’ve also found that using the thumb pivot, as Carol Kaye describes, to be extremely helpful (which is similar to micro shifting?). Keeping my thumb directly behind my middle finger as is often prescribed has always ended in physical discomfort for me.
 
#45
ErikP.Bass said:
I’ve also found that using the thumb pivot, as Carol Kaye describes, to be extremely helpful (which is similar to micro shifting?). Keeping my thumb directly behind my middle finger as is often prescribed has always ended in physical discomfort for me.
Click to expand...
Unless your arms are 6 feet long or have two elbows, it simply isn't physically possible to use OFPF down near the nut and keep your thumb behind your middle finger without a severe bend in your wrist. And that bent wrist not only saps the strength and dexterity from your fretting fingers, but is a recipe for serious injury.
 
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#46
Lobster11 said:
Unless your arms are 6 feet long or have two elbows, it simply isn't physically possible to use OFPF down near the nut and keep your thumb behind your middle finger without a severe bend in your wrist. And that bent wrist not only saps the strength and dexterity from your fretting fingers, but is a recipe for serious injury.
Click to expand...

That has definitely been my experience. I should’ve added that CKs approach definitely is more of a 1-2-4 approach, especially with groove playing.... with jazz soloing and lighter playing she says using the ring finger is OK. The other thing there is the OFPF approach generally lends itself to scalar playing while she stresses a chordal approach. That part is a whole other discussion that comes up a bit around here. This has been a great discussion around this topic.
 
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#47
Then there’s what I’d call a sort of extended Simandl technique (I think JimmyM mentioned it earlier) where you, for instance, start a major scale on the index finger and proceed to play Do, Re, and Mi on the same string using fingers 1-2-4. So the whole scale ascending across three strings is 1-2-4-1-2-4-1-2.

Knowing how to do Simandl, OFPF, Extended Simandl, and microshifting is IMO important for having a well rounded technique set.
 
#48
Lobster11 said:
Unless your arms are 6 feet long or have two elbows, it simply isn't physically possible to use OFPF down near the nut and keep your thumb behind your middle finger without a severe bend in your wrist. And that bent wrist not only saps the strength and dexterity from your fretting fingers, but is a recipe for serious injury.
Click to expand...
Mid 60's with 30 years of doing the impossible with no injury.
 
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#49
Pedullist said:
On bass guitar I tend to use it (Simandl) up until the 12th fret (unless I need to do fast stuff, I can switch easily on the spot). Why? It helps you to mute strings in the easiest way, and prevents strain on your fingers.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you have adopted a unique method of muting with your third finger.

I primarily play a 6-string electric bass and rarely notice any issues with muting or any difference when switching from Simandl fingering to OFPF...I will observe that effective muting with a 6-string involves both hands though. I use floating thumb, and the ring finger and pinkie on my plucking hand to control the lower strings. I use a combination of the plucking fingers and various approaches with my fretting hand to handle the rest of the muting duties.

When I switched from 5 to 6-string it took me a couple of years to learn to control the extra strings. I was actually still transitioning to OFPF at the time. There are at least five (maybe more) separate muting techniques that I use and integrate without thinking about it.
 
#50
ErikP.Bass said:
It’s funny. I definitely have an easier time mentally organizing the fretboard with a OFPF approach (including the five fret stretch/pivot) for reading and playing without looking at my fretting hand, no doubt about it. I’ve also found that narrowing down the number af fingering patterns I’m using helps me keep my place. I’ve taken a “there’s benefits to knowing both approaches / all fingerings” in learning but often wonder if this has hindered my progress...in that I flip flop too much and don’t stick with one approach long enough to get it fully engrained. A bit of overthinking and over complicating on my part going on for sure.
Click to expand...

I think studying multiple approaches can slow down the linear pace of your development, but over time I believe it can also open up a wider and more holistic view of the instrument and what you and it are capable of. The key of course is you must be dedicated to continuous improvement and actually study and practice.

Eventually the pure concepts of OFPF and Simandl fingering falls away and your own way of playing emerges. You keep what works, cast away what does not, and may even synthesize new ways of thinking about fingering and shifting that further enhances your performance. Unfortunately what works conceptually may exceed what our bodies are capable of, so you also need to build in a gatekeeping logic response that tells you to stop and adjust your technique to prevent damage.

I believe @40Hz says something very similar in this post: Simandl on bass guitar
 
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#51
stringtapper said:
I’m one of those who uses and promotes the microshifting technique. I wouldn’t say that I use it to the exclusion of OFPF and Simandl, because I definitely use both of those depending on the musical material and where I am on the fretboard.

In fact I’d say that the microshifting happens for me when using both OFPF and Simandl. Like many others, I’m usually using Simandl when below the 5th fret, and more specifically when the index finger is anchored to the E string low F. Shifting allows me to grab the Ab, Db, F#, and B on the 4th fret while maintaining Simandl.

But when I’m using OFPF (and to be clear, there are times I use OFPF below the 5th fret) the microshifting technique is more in line with what guitarists are taught: OFPF covering a span of four frets, but the index and pinky can shift outward at any time to allow a total range of six frets to be covered at any time.
Click to expand...


I believe Scott's Bass Lessons advocates for a 4 +/- 1 box, which I believe is essentially what you are talking about. To me this is just standard OFPF with microshifts. That's a little bit different than what I had in mind.

@honeyiscool describes a five fret box with the fingers grouped either 123 or 234...you avoid using 1234 to prevent hyper extending the hand. See this post: Am I not built right to play Bass?

There is quite a bit of related dialogue between honeyiscool throughout the rest of the page if your interested.

My string bass teachers taught me the claw and also taught me the pivot. In general I have abandoned the pivot as, IMHO, it also tends to hyper-extend the hand and rarely offered me any real advantage in speed. I practiced the pivot on string bass for years and it just didn't work well for me. I always felt the pivot degraded my intonation and awareness of exactly where I was on the neck.

The 5 fret exercise I was doing yesterday was up around the 16th fret and I would classify it as a reach. This is a very common technique on guitar and violin, but obviously of extremely limited utility on bass unless you are playing high enough on the fretboard for the spacing to work.
 
#52
ErikP.Bass said:
The micro shifting thing definitely seems key to playing using either approach. So many pro players seem to advocate OFPF.....I imagine that they must have worked through (or still struggle with) some physical issues, and/or have worked this subtle shifting into their technique (or maybe not).

I’ve also found that using the thumb pivot, as Carol Kaye describes, to be extremely helpful (which is similar to micro shifting?). Keeping my thumb directly behind my middle finger as is often prescribed has always ended in physical discomfort for me.
Click to expand...


IMHO the pivot is totally different than microshifts. With microshifts you maintain a stable "claw". With the pivot the shape of your hand changes drastically. The end results may be the same, but the manner of achieving the results are very different.

IMHO thumb behind the middle finger makes no sense on electric bass to me. This is approximately where it belongs on an upright bass though. Try an experiment. Rotate your bass into a vertical position and see if your thumb naturally moves towards the center of your hand a bit.

The proper position for the thumb will vary with your physiology. IMHO maintain that arch of your hand (the claw), but let your thumb fall where it is most relaxed. Mine falls approximately even with my index finger on electric bass and midway between index and middle finger on upright; the exact placement varies a bit.
 
#53
ErikP.Bass said:
That has definitely been my experience. I should’ve added that CKs approach definitely is more of a 1-2-4 approach, especially with groove playing.... with jazz soloing and lighter playing she says using the ring finger is OK. The other thing there is the OFPF approach generally lends itself to scalar playing while she stresses a chordal approach. That part is a whole other discussion that comes up a bit around here. This has been a great discussion around this topic.
Click to expand...

OFPF allows you to play chords and their inversions with less shifts as well.

I don't see any disadvantage to OFPF as far as dexterity. The main disadvantage is OFPF is harder on your body. So if you playing something repetitive that requires hand strength, but little dexterity, use 1-2-4. If enhanced dexterity is required, you have to make an informed decision that considers that wear and tear on your body. I would argue that it's better to use extra shifts and play a bit sloppily than cause permanent damage to your hand.

IMHO, it's necessary to maintain 1-2-4 technique if you can't use OFPF for everything without hurting yourself. This is what I do. Likewise, if the music you play does not benefit from OFPF, and you are not interested in expanding your musical capabilities, there is no real reason to learn OFPF.
 
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#54
Wasnex said:
Perhaps you have adopted a unique method of muting with your third finger.

I primarily play a 6-string electric bass and rarely notice any issues with muting or any difference when switching from Simandl fingering to OFPF...I will observe that effective muting with a 6-string involves both hands though. I use floating thumb, and the ring finger and pinkie on my plucking hand to control the lower strings. I use a combination of the plucking fingers and various approaches with my fretting hand to handle the rest of the muting duties.

When I switched from 5 to 6-string it took me a couple of years to learn to control the extra strings. I was actually still transitioning to OFPF at the time. There are at least five (maybe more) separate muting techniques that I use and integrate without thinking about it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm using right hand muting as well. Even left hand thumb on a 4. As a matter of fact, I never payed a lot of attention to it. I saw myself doing it in video's I did, as one of the many techniques to mute unwanted strings. I've been recording myself for many years, and it taught me how to play clean.
 
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#55
Wasnex said:
I believe Scott's Bass Lessons advocates for a 4 +/- 1 box, which I believe is essentially what you are talking about. To me this is just standard OFPF with microshifts. That's a little bit different than what I had in mind.
Click to expand...

I described two things, not one, the first of which is probably equivalent to what you had in mind.
 
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