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Singer has pitch issues — fire the drummer?

#21
One of the positions I had as a music teacher was a middle school choir director. It was amazing how much better the spring concert would sound compared to the Christmas concert. So, I'm saying that correct warmup and practice should help his pitch.
 
#22
PaulS said:
my wife has been a singer for 50 years, and “smile while you sing” is the exact advice she gave to our singer when he was getting a little out of tune when he tried to sing higher. It works.
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That's some good validation to me. :thumbsup:

I just remember when he said it I had two thoughts:

1) that's the dumbest thing I ever heard :laugh:
2) why aren't we enjoying this enough that we want to smile?

In the present group we smile alot, we enjoy what we do alot, so maybe that helps our vocals which are the one thing people comment on all the time.
 
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#23
Bullitt5135 said:
Question: Have you worked with a singer with pitch issues, and did giving him/her time to sort it out through lessons or coaching actually help? How long did the process take, or was it just a waste of time?

Back story: I've been with a new cover band for the past few months. I like just about everything about this band, but the singer has issues with pitch control. Now that we have a few gigs under our belt, it's apparent that he's pretty good most of the time. But there's usually a part in just about every song that makes me cringe – it's typically a tendency to go for a high harmony note that he hears in his head instead of sticking to the melody...then coming in sharp to boot. I've called out a few things at rehearsal, but it just doesn't seem to register with him. I'm a lousy singer myself, so I can't demonstrate what I'm talking about. He has a powerful voice and good range. If I had to guess, he probably has never taken vocal lessons and does not know how to practice or warm up beyond just singing along to the original recordings.

We are at a bit of a crossroads. We have the nucleus of a good, fun band. Personality-wise, we have no issues. We started as a post-covid "let's just get together and jam and have some fun" band, but we're getting some traction and want to get out in front of people. There's nothing worse than hearing, "You guys sounded great, but I don't know about that singer." Honestly, he's not terrible. It's more like he's the reliable running back that goes 95 yards, then fumbles the ball at the goal line.

We are going to address the issue one way or the other. Either we're going to cut him loose and find a new singer, or tell him he's got pitch issues and he needs to come up with a plan for cleaning it up. There is no immediate sense of urgency, as we have no gigs on the calendar. We genuinely like the guy...he's always prepared and has good retention of the lyrics. Secondary issues are a lack of stage presence (he is aware of it and gets a little better with each gig), and a balky sense of timing (not feeling/when to come in after an extended intro or guitar solo). It's all just a lack of experience.

My inclination is to give this guy a chance to step up his game. Point out the issues and suggest he find a vocal coach to work with. This is a "just for fun" band, not a commercial enterprise. There's not much at stake other than our egos, but the issues are obvious and they are causing discontent in the ranks. I'm just not sure it's realistic to expect the guy to magically get better in the next few months. Maybe it's time to fire the drummer?
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TC HELICON VOICE WORKS.
 
#25
Bullitt5135 said:
Question: Have you worked with a singer with pitch issues, and did giving him/her time to sort it out through lessons or coaching actually help? How long did the process take, or was it just a waste of time?

Back story: I've been with a new cover band for the past few months. I like just about everything about this band, but the singer has issues with pitch control. Now that we have a few gigs under our belt, it's apparent that he's pretty good most of the time. But there's usually a part in just about every song that makes me cringe – it's typically a tendency to go for a high harmony note that he hears in his head instead of sticking to the melody...then coming in sharp to boot. I've called out a few things at rehearsal, but it just doesn't seem to register with him. I'm a lousy singer myself, so I can't demonstrate what I'm talking about. He has a powerful voice and good range. If I had to guess, he probably has never taken vocal lessons and does not know how to practice or warm up beyond just singing along to the original recordings.

We are at a bit of a crossroads. We have the nucleus of a good, fun band. Personality-wise, we have no issues. We started as a post-covid "let's just get together and jam and have some fun" band, but we're getting some traction and want to get out in front of people. There's nothing worse than hearing, "You guys sounded great, but I don't know about that singer." Honestly, he's not terrible. It's more like he's the reliable running back that goes 95 yards, then fumbles the ball at the goal line.

We are going to address the issue one way or the other. Either we're going to cut him loose and find a new singer, or tell him he's got pitch issues and he needs to come up with a plan for cleaning it up. There is no immediate sense of urgency, as we have no gigs on the calendar. We genuinely like the guy...he's always prepared and has good retention of the lyrics. Secondary issues are a lack of stage presence (he is aware of it and gets a little better with each gig), and a balky sense of timing (not feeling/when to come in after an extended intro or guitar solo). It's all just a lack of experience.

My inclination is to give this guy a chance to step up his game. Point out the issues and suggest he find a vocal coach to work with. This is a "just for fun" band, not a commercial enterprise. There's not much at stake other than our egos, but the issues are obvious and they are causing discontent in the ranks. I'm just not sure it's realistic to expect the guy to magically get better in the next few months. Maybe it's time to fire the drummer?
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The first thing is, are you sure he can hear himself? Hear himself over the bass? I’ve worked with several singers, that have has problems. They are fine working of keyboards or guitar. A bass? They are all over the map.

The second thing is definitely, fire the drummer.
 
#26
I have this issue sometimes, I sing most of our leads and play bass. If I can hear myself really well and don't have to strain my voice I can usually find most of the notes and do a good job staying on pitch... however, there are some notes that I just can't find. Not even super high or low notes, just middle of the road stuff just can't come out right. For example, we used to cover Mary Janes Last Dance and I can nail the verses... it's mostly talk singing anyway, but when the chorus would come around it's like I lost all sense of how to sing and I would be all over the damn place with it. Sounded so bad that I refuse to sing it anymore. I have never been trained and since I was kind of roped in to being our singer, no one complains... they let me call audibles if my voice can't do something. All of these issues are compounded ten fold when I can't hear myself in the monitor though. I really think I might go ahead and get some IEMs.
 
#27
How do you know when a singer is at the door?

He can't find the key and doesn't know when to come in.

Srsly tho, in a pop/rock setting, if your singer and drummer aren't hitting their notes with good timing, nothing else matters.

Of course good singers (and drummers) are unicorns, so give him a chance to improve before cutting your losses.
 
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#31
Pitch - No.

But I've worked with singers that couldn't count to 4 on a life or death bet. I had one come in 2 1/2" beats early on Fever, and she didn't realize it. She just kept singing. Me and the drummer had to stop, look at each other, and then come in correctly to her. No one said a word but the audience had to know what happened. The guitar player just about passed out laughing, because he had warned us and we had told him there was no way she could be that temporally challenged. She was, and then some.
 
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#32
AGCurry said:
Huh?
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Old guy joke, like asking "what key" when someone calls C Jam Blues. Or referring to standards by their alternate names:

"I'm getting sentimental all over you"
"I've got you under my foreskin"
"Mellorine", "Brilliantine", "Cosmoline", etc. for Tangerine
"What is this thing called, love?"
"Satan Doll"
"In the Nude"

etc

"Not too fast, now, not too slow, just play it half fast"

OK, OK, I'll be here all week, don't forget to try the chicken parm.
 
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#33
If he's pretty good most of the time, maybe he is not that confident in himself yet and it is showing when he stretches himself? Maybe try complimenting him when he is doing a good job. Building up his confidence may be more helpful that telling him when he is off. It doesn't hurt to try.
 
#34
When it comes to vocals, raw talent and a good voice are not enough. There are several techniques that need to be learned and mastered. ranging from breath control and embouchure to general health, good posture, and your presence on stage.

Very few people learn (or even learn about) all these things purely on their own. So some training, either with a vocal coach, or as part of an ensemble or chorale group with an genuine vocal director is (IMO) absolutely essential.

Best bet might be to record your rehearsals and let him hear what the problem(s) are so it can be discussed with the full band present.

Where I live, private music lessons are very expensive. And vocal lessons are among the most expensive of all. So private coaching may be beyond his means. But that doesn’t mean he couldn’t find a choir or similar group to join where he’d be getting at least some degree of formal instruction.

Worth discussing it with him and suggesting it at least.

Luck! :thumbsup:
 
#35
Do I have to be this guy? No one said it in two pages?

Look. Pitch is literally the least important part of a vocal performance. No one, except OP, gives a ****. They are flat all the time. ALL. THE. TIME.

AND WE LOVE IT.

Has he he got tone, power, style? How about rhythm? Charisma? Stage presence? Does he remember the lyrics and the form? These are what matter.
 
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#36
LBS-bass said:
Sometimes with covers we singers end up doing what I call "car harmonies" which is where we sing along in the car doing a part that isn't in the song, and we can do it so often that it becomes second nature to just go there.

This isn't a terrible thing to do, depending on how much the band is open to reinterpretation vs. note-for-note, and if it's a harmony that's sung well it isn't a matter of intonation, it's a matter of not singing what's expected. It's also a skill that can be used to good advantage if part of the melody is out of someone's range. It's kind of important to make the distinction between singing a harmony and singing off-pitch.

An old boyfriend of mine once asked me why I "don't sing in tune" when I'm in the car. What he was really trying to ask was why I don't sing the melody. Some people are true harmonists and will just go there for fun and then out of habit, so your singer might need to sit down with the original recording to be reminded what the melody really is.

This may or may not be what he's doing but I thought I'd point it out as a possibility.
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Soooo guilty of this.
 
#38
M0ses said:
Look. Pitch is literally the least important part of a vocal performance. No one, except OP, gives a ****. They are flat all the time. ALL. THE. TIME.

AND WE LOVE IT.
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Literally? Not even figuratively.

Sorry. If you don't sing on pitch, you're not singing in my group. And if I hear a singer that's off, I know it, and it matters.

Too many times we settle for mediocrity or worse because "the audience doesn't notice" or "the audience doesn't care." Since we're the ones making the music, WE should notice and care.
 
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#39
Without reading both pages, if this has been addressed, please excuse the duplication. Many vocal pitch issues are due to improper diction and placement of the tongue, compounded by improper breathing. A skilled voice coach can identify these issues almost immediately in a first session and many times a few pointers with a few lessons or sessions over time will help the vocalist.

Very few times is the cause of pitch problems either a person's inability to sing on pitch due to a physical issue, such as a hearing or vocal impediment, or because of an insufficient understanding of what pitch is.

I live in an area of the country which is notorious for its dipthong vowels and scuffed consonants, and it took my voice coach, well, years starting right after my voice settled after the break to help me un-learn bad speech habits and be able to speak and sing with clarity, which helped me greatly in my "prior life" day job.
 

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