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Singers changing key: how much is too much?

How often does YOUR singer change a song's key?

  • Never (0%)

    Votes: 29 10.0%
  • Rarely (<10% of the time)

    Votes: 77 26.6%
  • Sometimes (10-50% of the time)

    Votes: 99 34.3%
  • Often (50-90% of the time)

    Votes: 45 15.6%
  • Pretty much always (>90% of the time)

    Votes: 28 9.7%
  • He's usually too busy eating carrots

    Votes: 11 3.8%

  • Total voters
    289
. . . please don't act like that's the fault of the vocalist who physically isn't able to make major adjustments to their instrument in order to accommodate your ineptitude.

This is the part I don't get. I consider it an essential skill for the singer to practice regularly for the purpose of building and maintaining a wide vocal range with good technique and stamina.

The singing voice is like any other instrument in that it requires you to put in plenty of time and effort in order to be competent. I don't believe the singer who never practices at home yet can only sing adequately in certain keys because they have an extremely limited range is at all competent. I would have the same reaction if the guitar player wanted to change songs so they were all in E, A, or D, so he could play solos easier. Just, no.

In addition to the 10 - 12 hours per week I dedicate to playing bass, I practice singing 4 - 6 hours per week (and singing is not even a priority for me). As a result, I maintain the ability to sing well, almost any song in any key. This isn't bragging, it's just what I think is the minimum skill level necessary to call yourself a lead vocalist.

If I was a dedicated singer and the only job I had in the band was to sing lead vocals, I would put in the time and effort required to make sure I could sound good in any key.
 
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If I was a dedicated singer and the only job I had in the band was to sing lead vocals, I would put in the time and effort required to make sure I could sound good in any key.

Some of the best gigs I ever did was where the lead singer was indeed trained and practiced, and was also the arranger. It really kicks the entire project up to another level.
 
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This is the part I don't get. I consider it an essential skill for the singer to practice regularly for the purpose of building and maintaining a wide vocal range with good technique and stamina.

The singing voice is like any other instrument in that it requires you to put in plenty of time and effort in order to be competent. I don't believe the singer who never practices at home yet can only sing adequately in certain keys because they have an extremely limited range is at all competent. I would have the same reaction if the guitar player wanted to change songs so they were all in E, A, or D, so he could play solos easier. Just, no.

In addition to the 10 - 12 hours per week I dedicate to playing bass, I practice singing 4 - 6 hours per week (and singing is not even a priority for me). As a result, I maintain the ability to sing well, almost any song in any key. This isn't bragging, it's just what I think is the minimum skill level necessary to call yourself a lead vocalist.

If I was a dedicated singer and the only job I had in the band was to sing lead vocals, I would put in the time and effort required to make sure I could sound good in any key.
Even the greats change keys as they get older, very few keep the keys of their younger years. Steven Tyler is one of the few who can still do his initial keys.
 
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By far, the most common key for classic rock songs is in E. Supposing the singer is more comfortable dropping a whole step to D. Instead of the tonic being played on the lowest open string at 41 Hz, it's played on the 5th fret of the next highest string at 73 Hz.

This is a significant shift upward in frequency and what represents a 1 step drop for the vocals, is really a 5 step rise for bass (and guitars). Vastly different sound with a very thin bass content.
 
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Vastly different sound with a very thin bass content.

Nope! I play a 6-string, so I can easily reproduce the original bass line down a whole step. It's one of the primary reasons I think having at least the low B is vital.

Lot's of bands sound absolutely nothing like the original recording to begin with, so this is not always as big of an issue as you are making it out to be.

I remember covering Free Ride by The Edgar Winter Group a couple of decades ago. We had to drop it a bit after the first tour to suit the vocalist, but it still rocked! :bassist: I believe the original was in D.

That particular vocalist was classically trained and one of the strongest vocalists I have ever worked with. Admittedly he was a bit of a prima donna, but I really don't think that had anything to do with the key change. He sang the tune in the original key for one tour, but it was really slightly out of his range and rough on his voice. This is something we could all hear. Why risk the vocalist's health, if you can make the song sound great in a key that is comfortable.

I was an active touring pro for about 25 years and worked with lot's of vocalists on a long term basis. We changed keys on at least a few tunes for most of them.
 
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Nope! I play a 6-string, so I can easily reproduce the original bass line down a whole step. It's one of the primary reasons I think having at least the low B is vital.

Lot's of bands sound absolutely nothing like the original recording to begin with, so this is not always as big of an issue as you are making it out to be.

I remember covering Free Ride by The Edgar Winter Group a couple of decades ago. We had to drop it a bit after the first tour to suit the vocalist, but it still rocked! :bassist: I believe the original was in D.

That particular vocalist was classically trained and one of the strongest vocalists I have ever worked with. Admittedly he was a bit of a prima donna, but I really don't think that had anything to do with the key change. He sang the tune in the original key for one tour, but it was really slightly out of his range and rough on his voice. This is something we could all hear. Why risk the vocalist's health, if you can make the song sound great in a key that is comfortable.

I was an active touring pro for about 25 years and worked with lot's of vocalists on a long term basis. We changed keys on at least a few tunes for most of them.



This falls under the category of the "exception" to the rule that I described in a few previous posts. I absolutely agree with the practice of the supporting musicians doing everything they can to accommodate the singer in a professional touring band where the singer is clearly the centerpiece of the band.

You chose to invest money into a 6 string bass and also some significant time and effort into becoming proficient at playing it because it was clearly useful to you to make yourself more professional in that advanced band setting, and that's highly commendable.

Frankly, I'm not the least bit interested in buying a 5 or 6 string electric bass and spending time practicing with it just because the vocalist in my local cover band would prefer to sing China Grove in D instead of E.

Sure, I could very easily learn the song in D on my 4 banger, but I really don't want to because it will sound like crap. And if I did agree to it, then why wouldn't the singer take that as a green light to change keys in a whole bunch of songs?

The bottom line is there is no "correct" answer that is universal to every band. It really is all about personal preference regarding what the individual musician is willing to deal with compared to the associated rewards. Some 25 years ago I had the opportunity to quit my factory job and tour with an up and coming original group, but decided against it because I knew that subordinating my musical desires to the demands of another musician with different ideas would leave me dissatisfied.

Does that make me the prina donna? I don't think so. It just means that I know what I do want and don't want, and I'm willing to be choosy with the band I'm part of in order to be content, artistically.

I have every respect for musicians who make different choices, especially those who sacrifice some amount of their own creative preferences, big or small, and work their butts off to make the "centerpiece" musician in the group look as good as possible.
 
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But that is the exception, and it seems that the OP wasn't in that situation. The OP was in the common, hobbyist type gigging band that we're all familiar with. They play classic rock and pop songs from the 70s thru 90s, where the vocalist is no more or less important than the other musicians on the stage.

I'd suggest that from the audience point of view, the vocalist is always more important than the other musicians, which should matter to even the most hobby-ist of bands if they're gigging. If the singer is straining to reach notes then the audience will notice it much more than they would notice that the song is being played a tone and a half down. As others have mentioned, big name acts do it all the time with their own songs.

As a trained vocalist myself, with decades of experience singing on stage, I would frankly be embarrassed to ask my bandmates to change keys in numerous songs in the set list to make it marginally easier on myself. For me, having a wide and robust vocal range that I constantly practice to maintain is along the lines of "pro level stuff", albeit at the part time level of pro.

Then I am happy for you that you likely start from a position of having a natural range that has sufficient overlap with those of the singers that you are covering that you can build it up to be wide enough to do everything that you want to do. Many brilliant singers have voices that will never cover that same range, no matter how much they work at it, because their vocal cords are physically a different length and there's only so tight that they can be held to produce high notes (especially as they age).



If you'll indulge me...is Philip Quast a) a brilliant, professional singer; b) going to be singing 'Don't Stop Believing' in the original key?
 
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I'd suggest that from the audience point of view, the vocalist is always more important than the other musicians, which should matter to even the most hobby-ist of bands if they're gigging.


Bassists play in the singers band. If you think otherwise, you are wrong in 99.999999 percent of situations. Plan accordingly.


I respectfully disagree.
 
As others have mentioned, big name acts do it all the time with their own songs.

As I've already mentioned (3 times) I fully accept that in big name acts, where the singer is the main reason why fans come to see the band, the musicians play supporting roles and they should do everything they can to support the singer. If the singer wants to play every song in C# minor and ⅞ time, then so be it.



Then I am happy for you that you likely start from a position of having a natural range that has sufficient overlap with those of the singers that you are covering that you can build it up to be wide enough to do everything that you want to do.

That's not the case. Believe me when I say that I don't have much in the way of natural musical ability of any kind. I discovered on my own, as a teenager, that I loved heavy metal music and decided to take up singing and bass playing (in order to cover my idols, Ozzy and Geezer). Frankly, I had no gift for either one, but I had enough passion for the music that I just practiced an awful lot and even took vocal lessons for several years. It took me a very long time to become proficient.

I still don't get this idea that lead vocalists in your typical rock cover band deserve special consideration to accomodate their limited range. Perhaps I'm just the luckiest (or the most sheltered) person on this forum, but every lead singer in every cover band I've been a part of in 30+ years has had a voice that was easily capable of covering songs in any key.

If you'll indulge me...is Philip Quast

a) a brilliant, professional singer;

b) going to be singing 'Don't Stop Believing' in the original key?

A) If I was the bass player in a band that supported a brilliant professional singer, then I'd shut up and do what I was told.

B) There are quite a few songs that are publicly known for a level of musicianship that is beyond the ability of local cover bands. I certainly can't sing "Don't Stop Believing" in the original key and I don't know of many singers who can, either amateur or professional.

My feeling, as part of a local cover band scene, is to simply choose another song. It's not like there's a shortage of rock songs to pick from.
:D:bassist:



Do go on.

Let me repeat what I said earlier, just to be clear -- What works for me may or may not be different from what works for others. Many bass players are perfectly happy playing second banana to the vocalist (or lead guitarist) and that's fine. I respect their dedication to their vision of what a band should be.

But that doesn't work for me and it doesn't work for many other so called "supporting" musicians. If I want to be in a band where the bass player is equally as important - or even more important- than the vocalist or other "lead" instruments, then I don't see why that makes makes me unprofessional or a prima donna.
 
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That's not the case. Believe me when I say that I don't have much in the way of natural musical ability of any kind.
I think we're talking about two different things here - I don't mean 'natural' musical ability, but rather 'natural' range as determined by physiology. People have higher or lower natural range due to the physical characteristics of their vocal cords and related parts of the throat. This is the starting position of a person's vocal range, which can be expanded by technique and experience, but will always have some relationship to the natural physical range. For example, my brother and I both have naturally low-pitched speaking voices. Not coincidentally, we both sing most comfortably in bass-baritone vocal range. I can singer higher than he can because I have performed as a vocalist more frequently and worked on being able to sing higher, but my range is still centred around that bass-baritone range. Conversely, I have a friend who has been a professional singer whose natural speaking voice sounds like a Disney character, and not coincidentally, he sings most comfortably around an octave higher than me, and his technique allows him to reach much higher than I have any realistic hope of getting to.

My feeling, as part of a local cover band scene, is to simply choose another song. It's not like there's a shortage of rock songs to pick from.
That's easy to say, but if you're playing (for example) a wedding and 'Don't Stop Believing' is the couple's favourite song, and you're not willing to drop the key down to play it, are they going to hire you or recommend you to others?

If I want to be in a band where the bass player is equally as important - or even more important- than the vocalist or other "lead" instruments,
Again, I think we're talking about two different things here, and I'm sorry if what I've said has made you think that I'm saying you should consider yourself less important. I completely support this as an internal band dynamic. However, from an audience perspective, the voice is the instrument that a majority of people connect with most strongly, therefore I am saying that I think that making the singer sound as good as possible to the audience should be top priority for most bands who have a singer, if the main goal of your band is to entertain.
 
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In a day with 6+ string basses, it ain`t that hard to transpose.
There`s not that many songs that include crazy chord structures that you couldn`t replicate.
In fact, when there`s been times I couldn`t exactly replicate a song note for note on my fours, I knew who the 3 bass players were in the audience that actually noticed.
I will do what I have to to help the singer out because he/she will be the 1st thing an audience judges a band by (in most cases).
 
Thought experiment:

Suppose I auditioned as a lead singer for a local classic rock cover band that had been around for several years and had a decent fan base and did about 5 or 6 gigs a month, but they needed to replace their singer.

I nail the audition and the band says they think my voice is fantastic and I'm exactly the front man they're looking for and they invite me to join.

I tell them that I'll agree to join, but I have one condition. After looking over the 50 songs on the setlist they gave me, I want to change the key of 10 of those songs. I explain that those songs are tough for me to sing and I will sound better and there will be less chance of my voice pooping out if the guitarist, keyboard player, and bassist all transpose key on those 10 songs.

I'm wondering what their reaction would be.

1) "Cool. You're the singer and our fans care more about what you sound like than the rest of the band. We can do whatever it takes to accommodate you. The guitarist will buy a 7 string guitar and the bassist will buy a 5 string bass. We're professionals."

2) "Get lost."

3) "Maybe you should eat more carrots."


:D
 
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Thought experiment:

Suppose I auditioned as a lead singer for a local classic rock cover band that had been around for several years and had a decent fan base and did about 5 or 6 gigs a month, but they needed to replace their singer.

I nail the audition and the band says they think my voice is fantastic and I'm exactly the front man they're looking for and they invite me to join.

I tell them that I'll agree to join, but I have one condition. After looking over the 50 songs on the setlist they gave me, I want to change the key of 10 of those songs. I explain that those songs are tough for me to sing and I will sound better and there will be less chance of my voice pooping out if the guitarist, keyboard player, and bassist all transpose key on those 10 songs.

I'm wondering what their reaction would be.

1) "Cool. You're the singer and our fans care more about what you sound like than the rest of the band. We can do whatever it takes to accommodate you. The guitarist will buy a 7 string guitar and the bassist will buy a 5 string bass. We're professionals."

2) "Get lost."

3) "Maybe you should eat more carrots."


:D
I've been gigging for almost 50 years, it's always been number 1, cool!:)
 
Thought experiment:

Suppose I auditioned as a lead singer for a local classic rock cover band that had been around for several years and had a decent fan base and did about 5 or 6 gigs a month, but they needed to replace their singer.

I nail the audition and the band says they think my voice is fantastic and I'm exactly the front man they're looking for and they invite me to join.

I tell them that I'll agree to join, but I have one condition. After looking over the 50 songs on the setlist they gave me, I want to change the key of 10 of those songs. I explain that those songs are tough for me to sing and I will sound better and there will be less chance of my voice pooping out if the guitarist, keyboard player, and bassist all transpose key on those 10 songs.

I'm wondering what their reaction would be.

1) "Cool. You're the singer and our fans care more about what you sound like than the rest of the band. We can do whatever it takes to accommodate you. The guitarist will buy a 7 string guitar and the bassist will buy a 5 string bass. We're professionals."

2) "Get lost."

3) "Maybe you should eat more carrots."


:D


IMHO there is a natural tendency for people to resist change. I think their willingness to put in an effort will vary depending upon circumstances:

How long has the band been looking for a vocalist? If it's been a long time, then they are more likely to put in an effort.

How awesome are you? If you are truly remarkable they will be more likely to put in the effort. Putting in an effort may involve changing keys, or choosing/learning new repertoire.

How competent are the musicians? Highly competent musicians will be more receptive to change, and most likely they are used to dealing with it. There may be some negotiation/compromise though. For example instead of dropping the song a whole step, maybe it needs to drop a minor third so it goes into a better key for the guitarist. This can be driven by the nature of the instrument. (In my experience, it's pretty rare to find an electric player who uses a capo)


In my career, it was fairly common for us to have personnel changes; that is just the way it works in the military.

We generally had little to no input on which personnel were assigned to an ensemble, so a new vocalist usually meant major changes to the repertoire. But the reality is we tended to rotate repertoire to some degree even when we had the same personnel for long periods of time. The band I was assigned to lead played a mix of classic and top 40 country, so we continuously added contemporary hits when they were fresh, and then dropped material that had become stale. We also occasionally rotated some of our classic country repertoire.

An observation: If you have a hotshot guitarist you will choose material that showcases the guitarist's chops. When the guitarist moves on, you may have to drop material because the new player may not be able to pull it off. Or if it works, you might modify the arrangement so it no longer features the guitar.

When you get a new vocalist, you generally totally rework the repertoire to suit the vocalists skill, voice, and personality.

If you wanted to maintain the exact same repertoire, then you need to find another vocalists who is very similar to the person they are replacing. This is typically not an easy task in my experience. It's hard enough finding a good vocalists, much less a good vocalist with a very specific skillset.

For the record I remember making adjustments to accommodate the vocalist long before I turned pro. Also the reason I wanted to learn 5-string bass had little to do with accommodating the vocalists. I wanted to be able to play songs that were originally played on synth or 5-string.

My first bass was a Ric 4001, and I remember occasionally detuning to drop D to cover some songs. It was a hassle because then I sometimes had to play other songs in drop D, until I could get to transition where there was time to retune the instrument without interrupting the flow of the show.
 
^^^

Thanks for that post. Very informative.



You know, I learned something today.
150px-StanMarsh.png
 
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Thought experiment:

Suppose I auditioned as a lead singer for a local classic rock cover band that had been around for several years and had a decent fan base and did about 5 or 6 gigs a month, but they needed to replace their singer.

I nail the audition and the band says they think my voice is fantastic and I'm exactly the front man they're looking for and they invite me to join.

I tell them that I'll agree to join, but I have one condition. After looking over the 50 songs on the setlist they gave me, I want to change the key of 10 of those songs. I explain that those songs are tough for me to sing and I will sound better and there will be less chance of my voice pooping out if the guitarist, keyboard player, and bassist all transpose key on those 10 songs.

I'm wondering what their reaction would be.

1) "Cool. You're the singer and our fans care more about what you sound like than the rest of the band. We can do whatever it takes to accommodate you. The guitarist will buy a 7 string guitar and the bassist will buy a 5 string bass. We're professionals."

2) "Get lost."

3) "Maybe you should eat more carrots."


:D

You left one out:

4. "Yeah, OK, what key do you want it in? OK, let's run through it. Well, gee, this little bit here needs adjustment. I'll figure it out at home. We're professionals. We can make it sound good without 7 string guitars and 6 string basses. Just have to tweak a couple of those lines a bit."

My world for most of my musical life has been the jazz/swing/GB band. "You want it in Eb? OK. Hey guys, she wants to sing Lush Life in Eb instead of Db." "Ohhh mannnn..." "One-Two-Three-Four...." [Lush Life in Eb follows, played perfectly...]

The idea of having a meltdown because you can't reproduce the exact "signature" line from one specific recording just doesn't exist in that world. The bandleader will just tell you "so, play something that sounds good. One, two, three, four..."
 
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You left one out:

4. "Yeah, OK, what key do you want it in? OK, let's run through it. Well, gee, this little bit here needs adjustment. I'll figure it out at home. We're professionals. We can make it sound good without 7 string guitars and 6 string basses. Just have to tweak a couple of those lines a bit."

That's along the lines of what I thought: "Sure, what did you have in mind? Lets give it a try..."

Depending on the song, it may be just a little more of an eye-roller for guitarists, but anyone that won't just be pleasant and give it a try would rank as far more of a "prima donna" in my opinion than a vocalist that asks for a key change. If it works, great, if not, oh well. I personally actually kind of like the potential for new discoveries in my approach that a key shift may lead me into.
 
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