Singers changing key: how much is too much?

[retslock]

Hey Tea Bee,

So I'm in a band that been on a sorta kinda hiatus for covid reasons and in that time we have come up with a list of 20 new covers.

In our WhatsApp group, the singer announced today he wants to change the key of 19 of those songs to accommodate his range. In some cases it's no stress, a string up a fret down etc, but in others it involves jumping octaves and rearranging whole passages.

I'm just wondering what your thoughts were and if this is normal singer behaviour.

Cast your votes now!

It shouldn’t be an issue. The song should always be done in the key that suits the singers register best. No point doing the song otherwise. You want the best out of your band members. If you don’t use keys that suit the singer’s range then you’re not playing to the band’s potential and you’re wasting talent. Most instruments have an optimal range. Composers have always kept that in mind when writing classical music. It’s just part of the trade.

 

[retslock]

My dad told me this and it's not a hard and fast rule but he noted that most women that sing a male song will sometimes sing a fourth or fifth above the original key and the reverse in the case of a male singer covering a woman's song

This is why I play 5 string bass now.

 

[retslock]

I may have a personal beef on this song because we played it ~1983- Our singer took it down several steps- My dad who cannot tell that he cannot sing happy birthday in key- ever- in all my 53 years- Noticed easily- " it doesn't sound anything likeThe Police" Despite all the instruments being played correctly in the new key and tje very good singer hitting all notes correctly in a lower key...totally different sound.

" Nobody will notice" is used by us as musicians so often. I notice. Maybe nobody else will. So i personally would choose to do the song differently or avoid it totally.

Rush, performed 2 or 3 steps down sounds nothing like Rush...regardless of how talented everyone is. I cannot dunk a basketball so I don't get to play with the big boys. I used to be able to sing every high lead and harmony on " Living on a Prayer" even the high harmony on the final modulation.

I can no longer do that and just wouldn't dream of changing the key- It is part of what gives the so g impact(regardless of how we see the song then or now- it had impact).

We will all see this differently - I will stay with @two fingers on this...for many songs it does make a difference...for many songs it does not.

I respect the opinions of all on this- we just see (hear?)this differently

If you set out to sound like the original then you need a singer who’s range is in the right register to get that sound. Otherwise, the singer’s voice range sets the key.

 

[retslock]

Range is not just a matter of "can they hit the notes or not?" It's also a matter of where their break point is between chest and falsetto, how strongly they can sing the notes around that break point and how strong those notes at that place need to be.

When I was in great voice, I had little problem in that area, and I could practice and strengthen just about anything I needed to there. Now that I don't sing much, I suffer a lot more than I used to there. I'm not going to be able to sing an extended, strong note at that place in my range the way I used to, but I might nail it a half step above or below that place. It's really up to the singer to decide what their technical limitations are for each song, because if you're trying to nail a note like that, you don't want it to be lame. I'd rather it be belted out at full volume a half step down or up from original pitch than be weak. And the instrumentalists just don't get it with regard to this unless they are also singers.

Exactly right. The whole point is to deliver the song as best you can. That means in the range that suits your power and control. You have to be able to produce dynamics and intensity when the lyric/melody require it.

 

[TomB]

I’ve never cared a whit what key a song is in, and never once heard a complaint that a transposed song sounded wrong or funny. I can change keys without effort, and so can most of the pros I work with. I know from this thread that some ears are more sensitive; I’m also aware that some instruments are more challenging than bass to transpose, and I can respect all of that. But to me, the singers’ comfort rules absolutely.

 

[LBS-bass]

True, but he is singing some songs significantly lower than the originals.
People forget how mousy his voice was when he was young. Listening to albums like Empty Sky, many people today would think the tapes were sped up...

Well yes, he is, because his training taught him he had to do that if he didn't want to mess up his voice again. But the overall quality of his voice is vastly different because of his voice training, and I think that's what I hear when I hear him today, far more than the key changes.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I’ve never cared a whit what key a song is in, and never once heard a complaint that a transposed song sounded wrong or funny. I can change keys without effort, and so can most of the pros I work with. I know from this thread that some ears are more sensitive; I’m also aware that some instruments are more challenging than bass to transpose, and I can respect all of that. But to me, the singers’ comfort rules absolutely.

I do think it's cool to rearrange a song in a different key like going from a major key to a minor key.
That can be trippy and change the mood of a song and make it sound different

 

[frankie5string]

I do think it's cool to rearrange a song in a different key like going from a major key to a minor key.
That can be trippy and change the mood of a song and make it sound different

Hahaha... poops and giggles we used to re-key happy songs to minor. Skinamarinky-Dink is pretty funny in a minor key... So are most Raffi songs. Try playing "The More We Get Together" in a minor key. hehehe.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Hahaha... poops and giggles we used to re-key happy songs to minor. Skinamarinky-Dink is pretty funny in a minor key... So are most Raffi songs. Try playing "The More We Get Together" in a minor key. hehehe.

 

[Wasnex]

If you set out to sound like the original then you need a singer who’s range is in the right register to get that sound. Otherwise, the singer’s voice range sets the key.

True. The problem with this is many cover bands play a wide variety of songs from different artists in different keys. Most vocalists always sound like themselves and there voices are not all that flexible. My observation is the band often nails the cover, but the vocals often sound a bit foreign, even if the song is in the original key. The exception is some tribute bands. On a related note) At this point, Arnei Pineda probably sounds more like Steve Perry, than Steve Perry. Also while Arnei can sing the songs in the original keys, I don't believe Steve still can; at least not all night, every night.


In very rare instances you find a vocalist that can be chameleon and imitate a variety of voices in a variety of ranges. I have seen this sort of vocalist perform in YouTube videos, and I think it may have been a Filipino cover band. I don't think I have ever worked with a true chameleon, although I have worked with some pretty fabulous vocalists. Regardless key modifications are a reality.

 

[badinage]

Hahaha... poops and giggles we used to re-key happy songs to minor. Skinamarinky-Dink is pretty funny in a minor key... So are most Raffi songs. Try playing "The More We Get Together" in a minor key. hehehe.

For those who may not be familiar with Bill Bailey:

 

[Fun Size Nick]

all night, every night.

I see what you did there

Just FYI, his name is Arnel rather than Arnei. And agreed that he sounds more like Steve Perry than Steve does!

 

[hbarcat]

Depends on the band and its priorities. If the band is centered around the singer, then naturally, every instrumentalist does whatever it takes to make the singer sound the best. If the singer wants to change every song on the set list to be in their favorite key, then that's what happens.

I've never been in a band like that, in more than 30 years of gigging. Some of the bands I've been in, I was the lead singer, and I sang in whatever key the original version was recorded in. Very rarely did I have a problem with a song, but only when the original version has really high vocals that I just couldn't reach. I would usually decide to just drop the song from our list, although I do remember once dropping a Black Sabbath song down just a ½ step so I could hit some of Ozzy's highest notes.

Every other band I was in had a dedicated lead singer. Again, they were competent enough to handle the range required of any key, and in a few rare instances of being too high for their range, they handled the vocals with no problems. If they couldn't reach some of the highest notes, we dropped the song.

Personally, I would be very unsatisfied being in a band with a vocalist who would even ask to have everybody change the key of more than 1 or 2 songs, much less a whole bunch of them, just to accomodate their prima donna whims.

 

[LBS-bass]

just to accomodate their prima donna whims.

And this right here is why I mentioned in another thread that there actually are downsides to asking for what you want or need; someone will brand you as difficult.

It's not a "prima donna whim" to know your own range. It's pro level stuff, as so many here have attested. Once again, the wheat is on one side and the chaff winds up on the other and these are the tests no one knows they're being given. The judgy stuff cuts both ways.

 

[hbarcat]

And this right here is why I mentioned in another thread that there actually are downsides to asking for what you want or need; someone will brand you as difficult.

It's not a "prima donna whim" to know your own range. It's pro level stuff, as so many here have attested. Once again, the wheat is on one side and the chaff winds up on the other and these are the tests no one knows they're being given. The judgy stuff cuts both ways.

I tried to address this by making a clear distinction between different types of bands. I specifically noted that there are professional music groups where the vocalist is the primary artist and the rest of the group are merely supporting musicians. In these instances, the singer always gets what he or she wants because that's who people are coming to see. Accommodating the singer's demands is to be professional.

I have a guitarist friend who is in a group where the name of the band is simply the name of the female singer who fronts the band. Everyone bends over backwards to accomodate her, which is as it should be because her singing is what brings crowds out to see them do 80 to 100 shows a year.

But that is the exception, and it seems that the OP wasn't in that situation. The OP was in the common, hobbyist type gigging band that we're all familiar with. They play classic rock and pop songs from the 70s thru 90s, where the vocalist is no more or less important than the other musicians on the stage.

In my opinion (and that's all it is - an opinion) for the vocalist in the typical rock cover band playing local clubs and bars to be making demands for everyone else to put themselves out just so he or she can have it just a little bit easier on their inadequate vocal range is entirely unreasonable.

As a trained vocalist myself, with decades of experience singing on stage, I would frankly be embarrassed to ask my bandmates to change keys in numerous songs in the set list to make it marginally easier on myself. For me, having a wide and robust vocal range that I constantly practice to maintain is along the lines of "pro level stuff", albeit at the part time level of pro.

As demonstrated by some posts in this thread, some bass players are okay playing strictly supporting roles and nothing more. If they're satisfied with that arrangement, then good for them. I'm just saying that's not a band I could be satisfied being in, and it's clear the OP agrees, which us why he quit.

I also mentioned that there are many different types of professionalist behavior and many of them are deal breakers for me. Stage volume is one. Substance abuse is another. Excessive ego and prima donna attitude is right up there. Maybe I'm just lucky living where there are so many talented musicians and so many professionally minded bands around that I can afford to be picky, while others don't have that luxury, and if they get "branded as difficult" by a demanding singer for not changing keys on a bunch of songs, then they may not have the option of joining another band.

 

[jerry]

I tried to address this by making a clear distinction between different types of bands. I specifically noted that there are professional music groups where the vocalist is the primary artist and the rest of the group are merely supporting musicians. In these instances, the singer always gets what he or she wants because that's who people are coming to see. Accommodating the singer's demands is to be professional.

I have a guitarist friend who is in a group where the name of the band is simply the name of the female singer who fronts the band. Everyone bends over backwards to accomodate her, which is as it should be because her singing is what brings crowds out to see them do 80 to 100 shows a year.

But that is the exception, and it seems that the OP wasn't in that situation. The OP was in the common, hobbyist type gigging band that we're all familiar with. They play classic rock and pop songs from the 70s thru 90s, where the vocalist is no more or less important than the other musicians on the stage.

In my opinion (and that's all it is - an opinion) for the vocalist in the typical rock cover band playing local clubs and bars to be making demands for everyone else to put themselves out just so he or she can have it just a little bit easier on their inadequate vocal range is entirely unreasonable.

As a trained vocalist myself, with decades of experience singing on stage, I would frankly be embarrassed to ask my bandmates to change keys in numerous songs in the set list to make it marginally easier on myself. For me, having a wide and robust vocal range that I constantly practice to maintain is along the lines of "pro level stuff", albeit at the part time level of pro.

As demonstrated by some posts in this thread, some bass players are okay playing strictly supporting roles and nothing more. If they're satisfied with that arrangement, then good for them. I'm just saying that's not a band I could be satisfied being in, and it's clear the OP agrees, which us why he quit.

I also mentioned that there are many different types of professionalist behavior and many of them are deal breakers for me. Stage volume is one. Substance abuse is another. Excessive ego and prima donna attitude is right up there. Maybe I'm just lucky living where there are so many talented musicians and so many professionally minded bands around that I can afford to be picky, while others don't have that luxury, and if they get "branded as difficult" by a demanding singer for not changing keys on a bunch of songs, then they may not have the option of joining another band.

Some people might say a musician not willing to change keys, as "prima donna", just sayin'.

 

[LBS-bass]

Some people might say a musician not willing to change keys, as "prima donna", just sayin'.

I wouldn't say that. There are other words I might use instead but I'm trying to be nice.

 

[TomB]

I tried to address this by making a clear distinction between different types of bands. I specifically noted that there are professional music groups where the vocalist is the primary artist and the rest of the group are merely supporting musicians. In these instances, the singer always gets what he or she wants because that's who people are coming to see. Accommodating the singer's demands is to be professional.

I have a guitarist friend who is in a group where the name of the band is simply the name of the female singer who fronts the band. Everyone bends over backwards to accomodate her, which is as it should be because her singing is what brings crowds out to see them do 80 to 100 shows a year.

But that is the exception, and it seems that the OP wasn't in that situation. The OP was in the common, hobbyist type gigging band that we're all familiar with. They play classic rock and pop songs from the 70s thru 90s, where the vocalist is no more or less important than the other musicians on the stage.

In my opinion (and that's all it is - an opinion) for the vocalist in the typical rock cover band playing local clubs and bars to be making demands for everyone else to put themselves out just so he or she can have it just a little bit easier on their inadequate vocal range is entirely unreasonable.

As a trained vocalist myself, with decades of experience singing on stage, I would frankly be embarrassed to ask my bandmates to change keys in numerous songs in the set list to make it marginally easier on myself. For me, having a wide and robust vocal range that I constantly practice to maintain is along the lines of "pro level stuff", albeit at the part time level of pro.

As demonstrated by some posts in this thread, some bass players are okay playing strictly supporting roles and nothing more. If they're satisfied with that arrangement, then good for them. I'm just saying that's not a band I could be satisfied being in, and it's clear the OP agrees, which us why he quit.

I also mentioned that there are many different types of professionalist behavior and many of them are deal breakers for me. Stage volume is one. Substance abuse is another. Excessive ego and prima donna attitude is right up there. Maybe I'm just lucky living where there are so many talented musicians and so many professionally minded bands around that I can afford to be picky, while others don't have that luxury, and if they get "branded as difficult" by a demanding singer for not changing keys on a bunch of songs, then they may not have the option of joining another band.

Your point about differing bands placing varying priorities on vocals is valid.
What strikes me as odd though is the notion that by being asked to change keys, musicians would “put themselves out”.
That would lead me to worry about the skill level of the players.
If they feel it that’s ok I guess, but it wouldn’t be the band for me.
In defense of the OP though, key changes for 19 out of 20 songs would lead me to wonder equally about the singer’s skill level .

 

[LBS-bass]

Your point about differing bands placing varying priorities on vocals is valid.
What strikes me as odd though is the notion that by being asked to change keys, musicians would “put themselves out”.
That would lead me to worry about the skill level of the players.

That's why two of the words I might substitute start with the letter "i." But the level of expected competence is going to vary for everyone, depending on how serious they are about making music and how much competence they really need for the music they're playing. It's fine if you can't accommodate, we will assess that situation accordingly and maybe hire someone who can, but please don't act like that's the fault of the vocalist who physically isn't able to make major adjustments to their instrument in order to accommodate your ineptitude.

 

[hbarcat]

Your point about differing bands placing varying priorities on vocals is valid.
What strikes me as odd though is the notion that by being asked to change keys, musicians would “put themselves out”.
That would lead me to worry about the skill level of the players.
If they feel it that’s ok I guess, but it wouldn’t be the band for me.
In defense of the OP though, key changes for 19 out of 20 songs would lead me to wonder equally about the singer’s skill level .

Some people might say a musician not willing to change keys, as "prima donna", just sayin'.

For me, what's important is the reason why a key change is being requested. There are plenty of valid reasons to make key changes and to make other significant alterations to a song. I do it all the time and I consider the ability to adapt my playing for the betterment of a performance to be an essential skill.

In actual practice with the typical rock cover band, I've found that guitar players tend to have a steeper learning curve with transposing keys on demand than us bass players.

The reality is, so many guitar, bass, and keyboard players have spent years or even decades building a repertoire of songs they can invoke to make up a night's setlist that they can play using largely "muscle nemory" and this is beneficial to keeping the band "tight".

When the singer wants to have half the songs on the list changed to different different keys, you're almost guaranteeing that your hobbyist/part time gigging musicians are going to get a bit sloppy.