Singers changing key: how much is too much?

[turf3]

Well, if you want to talk about "most complex pop song of all time" in reality, rather than making the common assumption that "all time" started in 1980, I'd nominate "Someone to Watch Over Me", especially with its verse. Other nominations welcome.

 

[jerry]

Singer picks the key I'm my experience.

 

[39-Bassist]

It unfortunately happens. I hate it especially if you are doing originals and you've had the parts memorized for yrs.

 

[DrMole]

Well, let's run that pop fly out.

Let's say the top of Sting's comfortable range was C, and the top of his straining range was F, and the song as recorded ran up to E, thus providing the slightly strained effect we all remember from that song (there was a period about 1979 where I think every radio station in my city had it on six-times-per-hour rotation. Rock stations? check. Country stations? check. Mexican stations? Si, senor. Christian talk radio stations? Praise the Lord! So I remember the song pretty well, though I've never played it and have no idea what key it's actually in).

So if the top of my comfortable range is the G below Sting's C, and the top of my with-effort range is the C below his F, then if I sing the song transposed down a fourth, and if I didn't suck as a singer, I'm still getting the same effect, which is to be singing at the very tippy top of my vocal range thus giving the slightly strained effect that we all remember from the song.

The only people who will notice that I'm singing it in a different key are the two PhD music grad students who happen to have perfect pitch, at that table over there, and they don't care because they came out to drink beer and dance, not to worry about whether my $50-a-man bar band is doing "Roxanne" in the original key or not.

Comments?

I may have a personal beef on this song because we played it ~1983- Our singer took it down several steps- My dad who cannot tell that he cannot sing happy birthday in key- ever- in all my 53 years- Noticed easily- " it doesn't sound anything likeThe Police" Despite all the instruments being played correctly in the new key and tje very good singer hitting all notes correctly in a lower key...totally different sound.

" Nobody will notice" is used by us as musicians so often. I notice. Maybe nobody else will. So i personally would choose to do the song differently or avoid it totally.

Rush, performed 2 or 3 steps down sounds nothing like Rush...regardless of how talented everyone is. I cannot dunk a basketball so I don't get to play with the big boys. I used to be able to sing every high lead and harmony on " Living on a Prayer" even the high harmony on the final modulation.

I can no longer do that and just wouldn't dream of changing the key- It is part of what gives the so g impact(regardless of how we see the song then or now- it had impact).

We will all see this differently - I will stay with @two fingers on this...for many songs it does make a difference...for many songs it does not.

I respect the opinions of all on this- we just see (hear?)this differently

 

[juggahnaught]

Singer always chooses the key. They have the most to gain from it and the most to lose if it's not done. Non-singers usually don't understand this, but they need to.

Songs are only odd in a different key if it's the original recording shifted up or down. Otherwise, it's fine, it is what is is.

The most awkward song I've ever had to do in a different key was Fela Kuti's Water. It's in E flat minor, but we had to raise it by a fourth to A flat minor to accomodate a female singer. Playing wasn't the problem, but transposing the bassline up a fourth made it too high, while transposing it down made it too low for the Afrobeat-style bassline (which is iconic). I couldn't change the line because it's a core part of the song. So it did sound a little weird....but we managed, and I'd do it again.

 

[two fingers]

Well, let's run that pop fly out.

Let's say the top of Sting's comfortable range was C, and the top of his straining range was F, and the song as recorded ran up to E, thus providing the slightly strained effect we all remember from that song (there was a period about 1979 where I think every radio station in my city had it on six-times-per-hour rotation. Rock stations? check. Country stations? check. Mexican stations? Si, senor. Christian talk radio stations? Praise the Lord! So I remember the song pretty well, though I've never played it and have no idea what key it's actually in).

So if the top of my comfortable range is the G below Sting's C, and the top of my with-effort range is the C below his F, then if I sing the song transposed down a fourth, and if I didn't suck as a singer, I'm still getting the same effect, which is to be singing at the very tippy top of my vocal range thus giving the slightly strained effect that we all remember from the song.

The only people who will notice that I'm singing it in a different key are the two PhD music grad students who happen to have perfect pitch, at that table over there, and they don't care because they came out to drink beer and dance, not to worry about whether my $50-a-man bar band is doing "Roxanne" in the original key or not.

Comments?

In my view, this is just wrong. People may not be able to tell you've dropped the song a third or fourth. But they'll know "it doesn't sound right". It's not just the "straining" of the vocals. It's the pitch. Pat Boone doing rock songs recorded in a higher key was (literally) a joke album. That's because he sounded nothing like the original (and owned it). But it was a joke. If Eddie Vedder were to sing a Journey song...perfectly.... in tune....only dropped 6 whole steps, it would sound ridiculous. Steve Perry didn't just have a great voice. He had a great HIGH voice. And he never strained at all (during their prime anyway). That's what made him ridiculously good. That's why mostly females cover him in bar bands. That's why I (even though I can sing pretty high) can cover ONE Journey song per night before I'm toast. (I'm also almost 50 years old and do a lot of high backup vocals and a few other high-ish songs.)

The same goes for females. I've seen judges on talent show say several times "Don't try a Whitney song unless you got it like that, dawg." That's because Whitney was amazing. Her vocals weren't just spot on, but they were SKY HIGH and spot on. Dropping a Whitney songs just makes the song go flat. People won't know WHY it's "off", but, trust me, they'll know.

Jimmy Buffett? Sing it in whatever key you want. (And I say that as someone who is also a Buffett fan.) Allman Brothers? Skynard? Nobody cares. You can have a thin, high female do Sweet Home and it will be fine.

But there are some artists you can't get away with dropping. Period.

 

[DrMole]

In my view, this is just wrong. People may not be able to tell you've dropped the song a third or fourth. But they'll know "it doesn't sound right". It's not just the "straining" of the vocals. It's the pitch. Pat Boone doing rock songs recorded in a higher key was (literally) a joke album. That's because he sounded nothing like the original (and owned it). But it was a joke. If Eddie Vedder were to sing a Journey song...perfectly.... in tune....only dropped 6 whole steps, it would sound ridiculous. Steve Perry didn't just have a great voice. He had a great HIGH voice. And he never strained at all (during their prime anyway). That's what made him ridiculously good. That's why mostly females cover him in bar bands. That's why I (even though I can sing pretty high) can cover ONE Journey song per night before I'm toast. (I'm also almost 50 years old and do a lot of high backup vocals and a few other high-ish songs.)

The same goes for females. I've seen judges on talent show say several times "Don't try a Whitney song unless you got it like that, dawg." That's because Whitney was amazing. Her vocals weren't just spot on, but they were SKY HIGH and spot on. Dropping a Whitney songs just makes the song go flat. People won't know WHY it's "off", but, trust me, they'll know.

Jimmy Buffett? Sing it in whatever key you want. (And I say that as someone who is also a Buffett fan.) Allman Brothers? Skynard? Nobody cares. You can have a thin, high female do Sweet Home and it will be fine.

But there are some artists you can't get away with dropping. Period.

This fly ball was fielded far better than I could have before running headfirst into the Green Monster.

Props

 

[DrMole]

Well, let's run that pop fly out.

Let's say the top of Sting's comfortable range was C, and the top of his straining range was F, and the song as recorded ran up to E, thus providing the slightly strained effect we all remember from that song (there was a period about 1979 where I think every radio station in my city had it on six-times-per-hour rotation. Rock stations? check. Country stations? check. Mexican stations? Si, senor. Christian talk radio stations? Praise the Lord! So I remember the song pretty well, though I've never played it and have no idea what key it's actually in).

So if the top of my comfortable range is the G below Sting's C, and the top of my with-effort range is the C below his F, then if I sing the song transposed down a fourth, and if I didn't suck as a singer, I'm still getting the same effect, which is to be singing at the very tippy top of my vocal range thus giving the slightly strained effect that we all remember from the song.

The only people who will notice that I'm singing it in a different key are the two PhD music grad students who happen to have perfect pitch, at that table over there, and they don't care because they came out to drink beer and dance, not to worry about whether my $50-a-man bar band is doing "Roxanne" in the original key or not.

Comments?

Not the same effect at all- even if you are the first- Bass II for Trinity College, Cambridge.

While several singers on here feel differently- and that is cool, as we all have different musical goals- a couple of us are approaching this from the viewpoint of the vocalist, not the bassist, guitarist or other instrumentalist- Yes, the singer should choose the songs and choose songs within their vocal range.

Nope, I can't dunk on that 10 foot rim- but lower it to 7'5" and I am a monster- not the same- and yes plenty of holes in that analogy, for certain. But to say it does not make a difference to drop many songs a fifth is, IMO, wrong. As mentioned by @two fingers above- the audience cannot quite tell what is off but they know it is off again, for many, not all songs.

Transposing on the instrument is not the issue though I would prefer to play in A than in F# given the choice if the song was written and made popular in A. Open strings, ringing notes , overtones, harmonics all play a part in the sound and vibe of what helped make the song (presumably) popular.

 

[Wasnex]

In my last band, we had a singer who could handle any thing we'd throw at him. Tremendous range and never an off note. It made things easier for everyone else.

At church, we have a revolving group of singers, none of them especially strong, and are constantly changing keys depending on who shows up that week.

You do what you gotta do. It's always easier for the players to change key than for a singer to sing out of their range, but some songs should just be off the table if they don't work.

Just because someone can sing in a certain key does not mean it sounds good or is healthy for them.

Years ago I worked with a band that had a male and female vocalist. Many of the tunes were arranged specifically to put the male in the power part of his range. He was not trained vocalist, but he sang as an operatic tenor. This practice often put the female singing extremely high. She nailed it, but IMHO it frequently sounded shrill and grating. Also I am sure it was harder on her to sing in this range. IMHO, especially with songs that featured the female voice more than the male, and different choice of key should have been made.

Mariah Carey can (or could) sing in range that sounds like a whistle. Pretty sure it would not be a good idea for her to sing in that range continuously.

I do agree that there must be reasonable limits as far as making concessions to the vocalist, but ultimately the vocals are almost always the most important element of a song. So putting the vocals in a good key should have a significant priority. IMHO, if the instrumentalists and the vocalists can't play in the same keys, then it's not a viable group.

 

[LBS-bass]

She nailed it, but IMHO it frequently sounded shrill and grating. Also I am sure it was harder on her to sing in this range.

I'm dealing with this now. I'm singing harmonies with a couple of bands and since I am the only one who can hit the high notes at all, I end up getting shoved up into the stratosphere for these short bursts of harmony singing. I would much rather sing a little lower in my range, but it's not an option unless I do the octave down thing and sing below everyone else, which I do sometimes.

I don't think I sound shrill and grating, but it's certainly not my best voice.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm dealing with this now. I'm singing harmonies with a couple of bands and since I am the only one who can hit the high notes at all, I end up getting shoved up into the stratosphere for these short bursts of harmony singing. I would much rather sing a little lower in my range, but it's not an option unless I do the octave down thing and sing below everyone else, which I do sometimes.

I don't think I sound shrill and grating, but it's certainly not my best voice.

Perhaps my sentiment is wrong, but I see timbre issue as less of a problem when you are singing background, than when you are singing lead. Doesn't make it any easier on your voice though.

I used to sing some hillbilly harmony in a country band. I have a pretty weak voice with a very limited range, so I either sang close to my point of failure or not at all.

That group had great instrumentalists, but only the lead singer had a strong voice. The keyboard player had a better voice than I. The guitarist's voice was weaker/less flexible than mine, and the drummer was totally incapable of singing IMHO.

We put the song in the lead vocalist key and the rest of us did the best we could .

 

[LBS-bass]

Perhaps my sentiment is wrong, but I see timbre issue as less of a problem when you are singing background, than when you are singing lead. Doesn't make it any easier on your voice though.

I used to sing some hillbilly harmony in a country band. I have a pretty weak voice with a very limited range, so I either sang close to my point of failure or not at all.

That group had great instrumentalists, but only the lead singer had a strong voice. The keyboard player had a better voice than I. The guitarist's voice was weaker/less flexible than mine, and the drummer was totally incapable of singing IMHO.

We put the song in the lead vocalist key and the rest of us did the best we could .

It's less a problem, but it's a problem if you are a perfectionist and want the sound to be as good as you know it can be. If I were given more leads to sing, my range would be better. But I don't have the time to spend an hour a day doing voice exercises just to be a backup singer on small club dates at this stage in my life.

 

[obimark]

Hey Tea Bee,

So I'm in a band that been on a sorta kinda hiatus for covid reasons and in that time we have come up with a list of 20 new covers.

In our WhatsApp group, the singer announced today he wants to change the key of 19 of those songs to accommodate his range. In some cases it's no stress, a string up a fret down etc, but in others it involves jumping octaves and rearranging whole passages.

I'm just wondering what your thoughts were and if this is normal singer behaviour.

Cast your votes now!

Time to get a new singer. I will accept downtuning 1/2 a step for all songs. Thats about it. Also most songs will not sound right to the audience if you do more then that.

 

[Rottie Roo Roo]

I like this site because it has the strongest consensus of any website I've visited. It's like asking the Oracle of bass.

 

[electracoyote]

I have always looked for both male and female singers with the range needed to sing the majority of their songs in the key of the original most-popular hit version.

You get a male and female with good ranges in the band, you almost never have to change keys.

However, it sometimes happens that you have a great singer with good technical chops who can nail most of the material, and they are a great front person who knows how to put on a show, connect with the audience, and make the client happy, but they are just a little short in the range department. In that case, you adjust for that person on the handful of songs where they need help. I don't mind learning a standard in a new key or even dropping tune/using a fiver. Learning songs in the key of the hit version is easiest for the band, preferred, and makes the song sound "correct" to sensitive ears, but once in awhile you've got to flex for the singer.

I have learned over the years that some excellent female leads just can't handle "Barracuda," and some excellent male leads just can't handle "Don't Stop Believing," and that is why for the past couple of decades I have been in bands featuring both and the female helps the male with the tenor stuff. Unfortunately, once you get into "Barracuda" range, you either got it or you pick something else.

 

[LBS-bass]

Range is not just a matter of "can they hit the notes or not?" It's also a matter of where their break point is between chest and falsetto, how strongly they can sing the notes around that break point and how strong those notes at that place need to be.

When I was in great voice, I had little problem in that area, and I could practice and strengthen just about anything I needed to there. Now that I don't sing much, I suffer a lot more than I used to there. I'm not going to be able to sing an extended, strong note at that place in my range the way I used to, but I might nail it a half step above or below that place. It's really up to the singer to decide what their technical limitations are for each song, because if you're trying to nail a note like that, you don't want it to be lame. I'd rather it be belted out at full volume a half step down or up from original pitch than be weak. And the instrumentalists just don't get it with regard to this unless they are also singers.

 

[FirewalZ]

Hey Tea Bee,

So I'm in a band that been on a sorta kinda hiatus for covid reasons and in that time we have come up with a list of 20 new covers.

In our WhatsApp group, the singer announced today he wants to change the key of 19 of those songs to accommodate his range. In some cases it's no stress, a string up a fret down etc, but in others it involves jumping octaves and rearranging whole passages.

I'm just wondering what your thoughts were and if this is normal singer behaviour.

Cast your votes now!

Yep, happens often... I learned to think and hear in intervals...than view the neck as a grid based on the key. Make transposing on the fly much easier.

 

[frankie5string]

The tone of his voice has changed dramatically. It's not really the key, IMO.

True, but he is singing some songs significantly lower than the originals.
People forget how mousy his voice was when he was young. Listening to albums like Empty Sky, many people today would think the tapes were sped up...

 

[LBS-bass]

True, but he is singing some songs significantly lower than the originals.
People forget how mousy his voice was when he was young. Listening to albums like Empty Sky, many people today would think the tapes were sped up...

His voice was severely damaged and he took up with a vocal coach to sort that out. The upshot of that was also changing keys to suit his voice better. It does sound different, I don't disagree with you, but it's not because of the key changes, per se. It's because those songs were always out of his safe range.

 

[Baloo Pasquariello]

If it makes me go from a box to open strings, or vice versa, it's too much.