Cave Puppy
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Singers changing key: how much is too much?
- Thread starter Rottie Roo Roo
- Start date
Yes. If you know a song on piano in C major, imagine someone asking you to play it down a half step in B major on piano.
Not all “horns” are B flat instruments either. Trumpet and tenor sax are, while alto sax is in E flat, trombone is in C, though sometimes considered a B flat instrument. These instruments are designed around their home key, with the easiest fingerings being no sharps or flats. So adding sharps and flats can make them more difficult to play, IF that player hasn’t practiced the crap out of the key. Keys of E and A major (easy/common for guitar/bass players) are F sharp and B major for trumpet=lots of sharps.
Anyways, if it’s a professional horn player in a professional band, they should be able to play any song in any key without a struggle.
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Just play the damn tune, in whatever key it needs to be in. If you've got a singer, the singer dictates the key.
If there's some kind of famous bass line, make up something similar. No one will know that you're not playing the exact notes on the record.
If you can't transpose basic bass lines and patterns to all 12 keys, go practice!
Keep in mind that "the record", that some people treat like some kind of holy grail, was how the band played it that week. Doesn't mean they always played it that way.
Now if you're playing Schubert lieder, I would suggest those ought to be played in the original key.
If there's some kind of famous bass line, make up something similar. No one will know that you're not playing the exact notes on the record.
If you can't transpose basic bass lines and patterns to all 12 keys, go practice!
Keep in mind that "the record", that some people treat like some kind of holy grail, was how the band played it that week. Doesn't mean they always played it that way.
Now if you're playing Schubert lieder, I would suggest those ought to be played in the original key.
Cave Puppy
"Humph Bo, he's wond!" - John Lennon
I was in a band where the keyboard player (with a stack of three keyboards) could not play in sharp or flat keys. He would just play the white keys on one hand and manipulate the pitch bender with the other. Real pro. Yeah, right.
IME, most listeners don't know squat about the key a song was originally played in and won't be able to tell if you've transposed it up or down or halfway around. You might get someone out there like my LS who told me last night that he once heard Gladys Knight sing Grapevine a whole step down from the original version; I believe him. That guy can start any song a capella and nail the original key every single time. But I think I've met maybe two other people who have an ear for keys like that. 99.9% of your audience will not care as long as the playing and singing is solidly competent.
My feeling is it’s the singer who calls the shots as far as key change requests go. Even on the fly changes.
They don’t tell me how to play my instrument or best do my job. I don’t tell them how to do theirs. They know far better than me what their voice is up for at any point in a set.
And while I’ll admit that I’m one of “those people” who feels each of the keys (and modes) have distinct personalities or vibes going for them - and some work better for a given piece of music than others - I still think singers constitute a special case where you need to sacrifice what may be “best” for what’s best in that particular situation. Because, if your singer craters during a song, it’s going to be a total loss no matter what key you’re in. So I think it’s smarter to think “big picture” whenever vocals are involved.
Besides, if you actually know how to play your instrument, being asked to transpose a song for whatever reason, even if on short notice, shouldn’t pose a problem. IMO, if you can’t play a passage in any key anywhere on the neck, you basically need to study more and practice harder.
They don’t tell me how to play my instrument or best do my job. I don’t tell them how to do theirs. They know far better than me what their voice is up for at any point in a set.
And while I’ll admit that I’m one of “those people” who feels each of the keys (and modes) have distinct personalities or vibes going for them - and some work better for a given piece of music than others - I still think singers constitute a special case where you need to sacrifice what may be “best” for what’s best in that particular situation. Because, if your singer craters during a song, it’s going to be a total loss no matter what key you’re in. So I think it’s smarter to think “big picture” whenever vocals are involved.
Besides, if you actually know how to play your instrument, being asked to transpose a song for whatever reason, even if on short notice, shouldn’t pose a problem. IMO, if you can’t play a passage in any key anywhere on the neck, you basically need to study more and practice harder.
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And learn changes by their harmonic function not by their names. If you know it's a I then goes to VI then around the circle of fifths back to I then the bridge starts on IV, etc., etc., you don't need to know all the names.
Again, in the vast majority of cases we ain't playin' Giant Steps, here.
Again, in the vast majority of cases we ain't playin' Giant Steps, here.
I've only seen one pro horn player. Wait, make that two. My son and his college friend. Both playing pro sax now. Every other horn player I've played with were like me - amateur part-time hacks with day jobs outside of music. Limited players who have problems playing in some keys and problems transposing on the fly. I suspect my experience is not uncommon.
You could just sing it a full octave down, like those guys, Frank Sinatra, Perry Como, you know? It’d be the Las Vegas lounge lizard version. Totally cool.
Then no one would have to do boring mathematics about transposing keys.
It sounds like crap...rather simple logic. The charm of the original is Sting's vocal at the edge of breaking...(of course the bass is iconic).
(Am speaking specifically about Roxanne- plenty of tunes work well in many keys, as mentioned in my OP)
Same with covering the Beatle's version of Twist and Shout. John's range, pushed to the limit gives it signature, unmistakable character.
Of course it can be transposed but if trying to sound like the Beatles, any transposing removes any chance of nailing the sound we are used to...it would be like playing Back in Black on a clean 50's Fender Tweed. It is not just the notes but the sound, the texture.
I have zero problems transposing (better on some instrunents than others) and again, i said I have no business singing it. For others YMMV.
As was mentioned previously if the key change drastically changes the sound
of the tune, better off to try an innovative arrangement.
Plenty of awesome covers in different keys and the succesfully performed ones, to my ears will change up the style/arrangement to make the sound fit the key. Key signatures have particular sounds and the reason some songs resonate so much with many of us have to do with that sound.
Edit: Am aware that TAS was not a Beatles original and the Isley Brothers version is awesome. But if trying to sound like John- it needs to be in that key....Certainly people will get up and dance if you play it well, regardless of key. All of this said as a singer long before I touched a bass.
Edit redux: I see we agree on the character of keys and sound- My logic is only based on how I hear things. As @two fingers mentions- a Journey song down 3 steps will sound like absolute ish to me, regardless of how well and emotionally connected the song is- if a band is trying to do an otherwise note for note cover.
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Same here. I knew two singers (both in opera) with recording credentials, along with one composer, who could identify the key a piece was in with unerring accuracy. Regardless of whether their ability was a natural gift or came about as the result of extensive training, it’s still a very rare thing to be able to do.
totally! that is very true. For me, as the singer in my group... I'm VERY literal about "can't", versus "I think I might sound better in X key". Where as many, but of course not all, dedicated serious singers, don't always use the word "can't" to mean the same thing as me. I suspect I have a far lower threshold of acceptability for my vocals than great singers do LoL. But on bass, if I can't play something, then I mean it is unplayable, by me at least. If I can play it, but badly, I'll be honest and say that. I'm the same with descriptions of my vocals... but maybe that stems from being an instrumentalist, primarily, and vocalist as a secondary thing?
That's a little too much. Anything beyond tuning down half a step is too much. The band I was in, the singer only changed keys once. Bob Seger, Fire Down Below. He changed it from C to A.
Agreed. There are some guitar-driven songs out there where changing the key can change the character of the song, but even then if you need someone to sing it and you’ve hired a singer you are essentially obligated to respect the range of that singer. Changing key on an instrument? Simply change your position and/or fingering. Singing? Too much of a ‘push’ in either direction can truly mess with the singer’s vocal cords.i voted "pretty much always" even though that might be a stretch. but: females singing "boy tunes" and males singing "girl tunes" and finding keys common to both for duets, etc. = a lot of key changes!
it's just a part of dealing with singers.if we depend on them to 'sell' the act: we'd better accommodate the easy stuff!
Sounds more like a simple assertion based on a totally subjective personal opinion to me. But ok.
Possibly my confusion with your ‘logic’ that I have never once tried to sound exactly like anyone. So the esthetic of “tribute” level note-for-note performance is completely lost on me. To me it’s just mimicry. And in an age where access to the recorded originals is so easily accomplished I don’t see the point.
With a professional tribute band such as Rain I can almost see it since they’re actually presenting themselves a theatrical performance rather than a true music concert in that it’s more a snapshot of a given musical performance rather than an actual concert.
While in the subject of tributes and note-for-note, it’s worth noting that most bands don’t play their own music note for note every time when they’re in concert. Their live versions often differ significantly from their studio recordings. And as bands and artists age, they tend to change the keys their songs are in to better accommodate changes in their vocal capabilities. And in my experience, most songs are written with an eye to which key it’s easiest to sing or play in. So accommodation is far more the rule rather than the exception. Key selection for s rarely a conscious artistic decision when it comes to most popular music genres. So I’d politely suggest the premise you’re advancing seems to be seriously flawed.
My feeling is that if the original artists don’t seem to hold musical keys in any particularly sacred regard, where is it that “simple logic” dictates we should be required - or even expected to?
Hah! beat me to it! I just saw this, reminds me of when I got called last minute to play 2 gigs. I had to learn over 60 songs in under 2 weeks! luckily had a Key boardist to lean on! I had to chart almost every song!! it was hard but I got through & called back!
