Singers changing key: how much is too much?

[LBS-bass]

This x 1000^^^

I hear what you're saying- there's tension in singing at the edge of your range. But what if the edge of your range is a whole step down from the original? Do you just choose other songs or do you let the singer do it where it suits the singer?

I guess what I'm not understanding is how much the inappropriateness of the sound comes from the instrumentation versus the vocal delivery.

 

[FatherTrucker]

All this argument about playing in the same key the original recording was done in and tons of those artists don't even play their own songs in the original key on tour.

 

[DrMole]

Sounds more like a simple assertion based on a totally subjective personal opinion to me. But ok.

Possibly my confusion with your ‘logic’ that I have never once tried to sound exactly like anyone. So the esthetic of “tribute” level note-for-note performance is completely lost on me. To me it’s just mimicry. And in an age where access to the recorded originals is so easily accomplished I don’t see the point.

With a professional tribute band such as Rain I can almost see it since they’re actually presenting themselves a theatrical performance rather than a true music concert in that it’s more a snapshot of a given musical performance rather than an actual concert.

While in the subject of tributes and note-for-note, it’s worth noting that most bands don’t play their own music note for note every time when they’re in concert. Their live versions often differ significantly from their studio recordings. And as bands and artists age, they tend to change the keys their songs are in to better accommodate changes in their vocal capabilities. And in my experience, most songs are written with an eye to which key it’s easiest to sing or play in. So accommodation is far more the rule rather than the exception. Key selection for s rarely a conscious artistic decision when it comes to most popular music genres. So I’d politely suggest the premise you’re advancing seems to be seriously flawed.

My feeling is that if the original artists don’t seem to hold musical keys in any particularly sacred regard, where is it that “simple logic” dictates we should be required - or even expected to?

You are correct- my logic was not in any means formal logic.

And I agree with almost all your points with a few wrinkles.

I have played in many cover groups- some bordering on tribute- yet one of my favorite projects was a set that covered GnR, Appetite- the entire album...Nobody could do a decent Axl( for better or worse)

We chose to perform every song in Honkey Tonk style- keys were semi-random, vocals an octave down (i was not singing much on this project)- But it became an entirely different thing.
If I were doing a straight-up GnR set-I would want it to sound like (a good performance) of GnR maybe 1/2 step change at most- but again this is yes, my audio opinion based on the overall sound.

Johnny Cash did some incredible covers- some better than the originals IMO but if one wanted the sound of the original, Cash"s versions wouldn't cut it for many listeners.

I reiterrate, ad nauseum That this is my opinion as a singer, not a bass player.

 

[G Aichele]

We put all our music into digital form -- not a problem, since decent flatbed scanners and music notation software are not very expensive, or hard to learn. Then changing keys to accommodate singers (or Bb instruments) is easy and quick.

 

[ToneMonkey]

So the real issue then is not the key, but the transposition. When they say "it's a Bb instrument" what they're really trying to say is that this makes it harder to transpose from the learned key to a different one. That makes sense to this crappy piano player.

I dunno. I stopped playing trumpet in 4th grade. But I think that might be an issue. Could be. Might be.

 

[DrMole]

I hear what you're saying- there's tension in singing at the edge of your range. But what if the edge of your range is a whole step down from the original? Do you just choose other songs or do you let the singer do it where it suits the singer?

I guess what I'm not understanding is how much the inappropriateness of the sound comes from the instrumentation versus the vocal delivery.

I wish I knew where that line was and think much depends on the inherent character of the singers voice.

I do not have perfect pitch but obnoxiously close to, but relative pitch. I can hear the sound of a siren or church bell and say" that is the opening note to..."

So i get all the frustrations of PP without the full benefits- resulting in my frustrations as mentioned in my posts.

 

[40Hz]

I reiterrate, ad nauseum That this is my opinion as a singer, not a bass player.

Nothing wrong with ad nauseum when necessary. I’ve been known to grind axes better and more frequently than a busy lumberjack sometimes.

My feelings come more from my perspectives as a songwriter and singer rather than a bassplayer too. So you’re in good company AFAIC.

It all comes down to personal preferences and opinions anyway. Most times when I get on a roll it’s more to help me clarify my own position (to myself) on some topic rather than prove or disprove someone else’s position.

 

[lordradish]

I'd much rather take a few minutes and learn the different key (which, if we're being honest, is not that hard on bass) than to have some singer out of tune. That's never pleasant.

 

[SLO Surfer]

I've only seen one pro horn player. Wait, make that two. My son and his college friend. Both playing pro sax now. Every other horn player I've played with were like me - amateur part-time hacks with day jobs outside of music. Limited players who have problems playing in some keys and problems transposing on the fly. I suspect my experience is not uncommon.

I suspect your experience is very common. My experience, while much different from yours, is also not uncommon. That’s one of the best things about music; we can all get enjoyment out of it regardless of our own musical experiences, relationships and aspirations.

Either way, and back to the point, I’m in the camp that it’s common and best for ALL gigging musicians to be able to accommodate/support a lead singer’s vocal range.

 

[Hasty]

We change keys for about half the songs we play. Most songs I don’t care what key, but……

We added Footloose to the song list recently. Original is in A, female singer asked for it in C.

I said - no, just alter the occasional low notes of the melody in the verse (I have performed it with several other female singers who have all done that).

We’re doing it in A.

Truth! If you're playing the same lines that Nathan East originally did then key alterations are not something to be taken lightly. Footloose was never really on my radar until I had to learn it, then things escalated quickly after that.

 

[LBS-bass]

I suspect your experience is very common. My experience, while much different from yours, is also not uncommon. That’s one of the best things about music; we can all get enjoyment out of it regardless of our own musical experiences, relationships and aspirations.

Either way, and back to the point, I’m in the camp that it’s common and best for ALL gigging musicians to be able to accommodate/support a lead singer’s vocal range.

In my experience, that is the way it used to be 40 years ago or so when I first started. Everyone out there who was actually working had a good working knowledge of their instrument. But I learned that things were a lot different when I came back to it a few decades later.

 

[frankie5string]

All this argument about playing in the same key the original recording was done in and tons of those artists don't even play their own songs in the original key on tour.

Yeah, it's downright weird to hear Elton John sing some of his pre-YBR tunes in the keys he does them now. Some actually sound like the tape has been slowed down - eerie. heheh.

 

[LBS-bass]

Truth! If you're playing the same lines that Nathan East originally did then key alterations are not something to be taken lightly. Footloose was never really on my radar until I had to learn it, then things escalated quickly after that.

I don't play Footloose, but any song that relies on passing tones on open strings, and especially a low E, is going to suffer more if you try to transpose it. Almost anything else will not be hard.

 

[darwin-bass]

So what is your purpose in covering a song? Perfect copy of the original (tribute band)? Doing your artistic version of the song (Eric Clapton "Layla" vs Derek & the Dominoes)? Or something in between.

I think this heavily influences how much transposing is OK. We don't have the same definition of "cover" so our perspectives are going to be all over the map.

In my world (church) we lead sing-alongs. We don't have full instrumentation. Nobody expects us to sound like the original hit by the famous artist. So, transposing is no big deal. We're doing a song now that is in Eb (very high) that we've transposed down to G to make it singable. That's like down a 6th (I can't count that far).

Were I in a tribute band, I'd expect the lead singer to sound like the original so the original keys would be an expectation.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yeah, it's downright weird to hear Elton John sing some of his pre-YBR tunes in the keys he does them now. Some actually sound like the tape has been slowed down - eerie. heheh.

The tone of his voice has changed dramatically. It's not really the key, IMO.

 

[Hasty]

I don't play Footloose, but any song that relies on passing tones on open strings, and especially a low E, is going to suffer more if you try to transpose it. Almost anything else will not be hard.

Oh for sure!

Footloose is definitely more of an exception than a rule. It's just that particular tune caught my attention. It haunted my dreams the first few days I started shedding it out. Our singer asked us to transpose it down on the second night and I just brought a second bass tuned down a whole step rather than go through the psychological trauma of trying to learn it all over again with 24 hours notice.

 

[LBS-bass]

Oh for sure!

Footloose is definitely more of an exception than a rule. It's just that particular tune caught my attention. It haunted my dreams the first few days I started shedding it out. Our singer asked us to transpose it down on the second night and I just brought a second bass tuned down a whole step rather than go through the psychological trauma of trying to learn it all over again with 24 hours notice.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to do it. There's a reason I don't play it to begin with. Tons of work to learn it right the first time, then transposing lines that rely on a bounce off open strings? I might pass on that one.

 

[turf3]

It sounds like crap...rather simple logic. The charm of the original is Sting's vocal at the edge of breaking...(of course the bass is iconic).
(Am speaking specifically about Roxanne- plenty of tunes work well in many keys, as mentioned in my OP)
Same with covering the Beatle's version of Twist and Shout. John's range, pushed to the limit gives it signature, unmistakable character.
Of course it can be transposed but if trying to sound like the Beatles, any transposing removes any chance of nailing the sound we are used to...it would be like playing Back in Black on a clean 50's Fender Tweed. It is not just the notes but the sound, the texture.

I have zero problems transposing (better on some instrunents than others) and again, i said I have no business singing it. For others YMMV.

As was mentioned previously if the key change drastically changes the sound
of the tune, better off to try an innovative arrangement.

Plenty of awesome covers in different keys and the succesfully performed ones, to my ears will change up the style/arrangement to make the sound fit the key. Key signatures have particular sounds and the reason some songs resonate so much with many of us have to do with that sound.

Edit: Am aware that TAS was not a Beatles original and the Isley Brothers version is awesome. But if trying to sound like John- it needs to be in that key....Certainly people will get up and dance if you play it well, regardless of key. All of this said as a singer long before I touched a bass.

Edit redux: I see we agree on the character of keys and sound- My logic is only based on how I hear things. As @two fingers mentions- a Journey song down 3 steps will sound like absolute ish to me, regardless of how well and emotionally connected the song is- if a band is trying to do an otherwise note for note cover.

Well, let's run that pop fly out.

Let's say the top of Sting's comfortable range was C, and the top of his straining range was F, and the song as recorded ran up to E, thus providing the slightly strained effect we all remember from that song (there was a period about 1979 where I think every radio station in my city had it on six-times-per-hour rotation. Rock stations? check. Country stations? check. Mexican stations? Si, senor. Christian talk radio stations? Praise the Lord! So I remember the song pretty well, though I've never played it and have no idea what key it's actually in).

So if the top of my comfortable range is the G below Sting's C, and the top of my with-effort range is the C below his F, then if I sing the song transposed down a fourth, and if I didn't suck as a singer, I'm still getting the same effect, which is to be singing at the very tippy top of my vocal range thus giving the slightly strained effect that we all remember from the song.

The only people who will notice that I'm singing it in a different key are the two PhD music grad students who happen to have perfect pitch, at that table over there, and they don't care because they came out to drink beer and dance, not to worry about whether my $50-a-man bar band is doing "Roxanne" in the original key or not.

Comments?

 

[matthewbrown]

As long as the singer doesn't change key on the fly, no problem.

 

[silky smoove]

Oh for sure!

Footloose is definitely more of an exception than a rule. It's just that particular tune caught my attention. It haunted my dreams the first few days I started shedding it out. Our singer asked us to transpose it down on the second night and I just brought a second bass tuned down a whole step rather than go through the psychological trauma of trying to learn it all over again with 24 hours notice.

I too just learned this song for a string of gigs. Playing that song without being able to lean on open strings would be very challenging for most players. I certainly wouldn't try and cop the original line if the pedal tone was on a fretted note.

Fittingly enough, to the discussion of this thread, this band does a lot of medleys and mash-ups to try and give a similar presentation as a DJ but with a live band. This necessitates a lot of weird key changes when songs get mashed up that are in disparate keys. Toni Basil's "Mickey" into James Brown's "I Got You" played over the top of "Mickey" which necessitates transposing "I Got You" from C all the way down to E is particularly weird. Playing Kool and The Gang's "Get Down On It" transposed up a half step to Fm and then transitioning to ABBA's "Dancing Queen" with the verses sung over the top of "Get Down On It" but shifting "Dancing Queen" down from A to Ab, which kinda sorta works is... well... The crowds dig that one, but it always sounds bizarre to my ears.