So what do YOU call this scale?

[40Hz]

The OP's question, and the varied responses, is one of the reasons I drifted away from a need to name every scale-like figure I was playing or hearing. I tend to think of things as 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 (sometimes 9,11,13) and they are either natural, b or #.

Me too and for the same reason. Except I think in numbered semitones and ignore sharps and flats as well. Ages ago I got impatient with the whole attempt to try to wedge our 12-tone chromatic scale into a diatonic framework. Using numbers just makes a whole lot more sense. Especially when you consider that Western music, nomenclature, and notation isn’t the only system in the world of music.

 

[brianrost]

In case someone didn't already mention this:

the added note in question is a NATURAL 7 which isn't present in what we call the Blues Scale, but sure seems to turn up in an awful lot of songs.

That's because it's needed in order to play a cadence. The question is whether the maj7 note is used in the chords...is the V chord being played major or minor? If played as minor, then the maj7 is a passing tone.

P.S. in general, a scale cannot have both the natural note and it's accidental...i.e. any E scale cannot have both a D (min7) and D# (maj7). That makes your scale a synthetic scale.

 

[SteveCS]

EDIT: And that 3 is just a m3 since it's the minor pentatonic we're talking about.

Oh, I got that. But it's a minor scale, so it would be notated a m3 (minor 3rd).

"Flat 3rd" is part of verbal jazz shorthand. Implies the same thing.

Furthermore, many songs float between minor and major keys in various parts of the progression, so "flat 3" is a way to describe a note 3 semitones above the root, regardless of the key or chord in question. It saves time and thwarts those who actively seek to misunderstand.

In fact, minor is the correct nomenclature. Intervals are diminished, minor, major, perfect or augmented. The use of 'flat' and 'sharp' to qualify intervals is an anachronism from the jazz vernacular where pretty much everything is viewed in relation to the major scale.

 

[mambo4]

Me too and for the same reason. Except I think in numbered semitones and ignore sharps and flats as well.

that works for some folks but for me the major scale in many fingerings and its arpeggios is the most practiced and instinctive musical form in my toolbox, so it makes a more useful ruler against which to compare other scales. I instinctively know what a major 3rd is, but I have to stop and analyze how many semitones that is.

 

[fretlessman71]

In fact, minor is the correct nomenclature. Intervals are diminished, minor, major, perfect or augmented. The use of 'flat' and 'sharp' to qualify intervals is an anachronism from the jazz vernacular where pretty much everything is viewed in relation to the major scale.

I think "anachronism" is overstating it; it makes it sound like only the early jazz musicians used the terminology, whereas I hear it on a regular basis still today. It's more of a dialect.

 

[fretlessman71]

So we have a consensus that there is no name for this scale, and that even the term "blues scale" is only an exact thing in certain circles (Abersold students, et al). Very well. For all of my whining, I do appreciate everyone's responses here. I'm trying to find a way to teach these related scales to my students in a way that won't confuse them, and it seems like the way to do it is to stick with the Minor Pentatonic scale, and to refer to anything that uses a chromatic passing tone (b5, nat7, and even nat3!) as a "Minor blues scale" identified by the added note(s). Whaddya think?

 

[Paul New]

I studied music theory for five years at Manhattan School of Music and Mannes College of Music (double-bass major). These "extra" notes are passing tones, and not "part" of a scale per se. As such, these scales with additional passing tones do not deserve a name of their own. Any "name" that is given to them is the musical equivalent of "slang", and not the music equivalent of "the King's English". That said, call it what you want, but don't expect people who studied "legit" music theory to take the terms seriously.

I get what you're saying, but you studied at Manhattan School of Music. Had you studied at Berklee instead you might recognize the convention that considers both 7ths to be degrees of the dominant bebop scale, and both 6ths degrees of the major bebop scale.

 

[SteveCS]

So we have a consensus that there is no name for this scale, and that even the term "blues scale" is only an exact thing in certain circles (Abersold students, et al). Very well. For all of my whining, I do appreciate everyone's responses here. I'm trying to find a way to teach these related scales to my students in a way that won't confuse them, and it seems like the way to do it is to stick with the Minor Pentatonic scale, and to refer to anything that uses a chromatic passing tone (b5, nat7, and even nat3!) as a "Minor blues scale" identified by the added note(s). Whaddya think?

I think it might help to see that 'scale' in the context of the harmony. If, for example, it is used as the basis of soloing through a cadence it could be that the m7, M7 are, in fact, m3 and M3 of the V chord leading back to i/I in a V-I cadence. In which case the concept of a double-blues scale makes a little more sense against the 'dominant' (that is to say simultaneously in two keys and never quite in either of them) structure of the blues.
Just thinking aloud...

 

[40Hz]

that works for some folks but for me the major scale in many fingerings and its arpeggios is the most practiced and instinctive musical form in my toolbox, so it makes a more useful ruler against which to compare other scales. I instinctively know what a major 3rd is, but I have to stop and analyze how many semitones that is.

It’s like touch typing, morse code, any other arbitrary convention. The more you use it, the easier and more intuitive it gets. But if you’re more comfortable with a different system, then there’s no point in you switching horses.

I started thinking in semitones because I didn’t like the (IMO) overly complex and occasionally capricious naming conventions music theory employs. So this 12 semitone thing I think in grew out of my dissatisfaction with standard music terminology and naming conventions. It didn’t save me from having to learn and use traditional music theory just the same. Because it’s the standard and I need to be able to work with other musicians.

But for my own purposes, thinking in 12 uniquely named semitones is a cleaner and clearer way to see what's going on in a musical passage. So I mentioned it in case anyone else might find it useful.

 

[fretlessman71]

I think it might help to see that 'scale' in the context of the harmony. If, for example, it is used as the basis of soloing through a cadence it could be that the m7, M7 are, in fact, m3 and M3 of the V chord leading back to i/I in a V-I cadence. In which case the concept of a double-blues scale makes a little more sense against the 'dominant' (that is to say simultaneously in two keys and never quite in either of them) structure of the blues.
Just thinking aloud...

In the respect that "blues scales" are rather unique in the idea that they tend to be minor even when (or especially when?) the chord progression below them is in a major key, I don't think the standard rules for harmony apply. In fact, when the chords change in a typical I7-IV7-V7 blues chord progression, the soloing scale often doesn't even leave the root note.

 

[lfmn16]

So we have a consensus that there is no name for this scale, and that even the term "blues scale" is only an exact thing in certain circles (Abersold students, et al). Very well. For all of my whining, I do appreciate everyone's responses here. I'm trying to find a way to teach these related scales to my students in a way that won't confuse them, and it seems like the way to do it is to stick with the Minor Pentatonic scale, and to refer to anything that uses a chromatic passing tone (b5, nat7, and even nat3!) as a "Minor blues scale" identified by the added note(s). Whaddya think?

I think you've got it. No need to make things unnecessarily complex.

 

[HolmeBass]

I hear you.

A prog band I was in back in the 70s used the term “Z-flat” for any weird scale or chord we were using whenever naming it was more challenging than we were interested in thrashing out.

Eventually we just abandoned standard nomenclature and went over to a homebrew chromatic notation using base-12 that eliminated the need for terms like sharp, flat, major, minor, diminished, etc. Everything was numeric. So instead of “major” for root-3rd-5th it was a 158; or instead of diminished being root-flat 3rd-flat fifth it was a 147. For chord inversions you just changed around the order of the integers in the “stack.”

Once you got used to it, it was easy to use. No more half-diminished yadda-yadda naming. Just numbered semitones sitting in stacks.

It worked for us at least.

This is actually brilliant. Something and engineer can love.

 

[40Hz]

This is actually brilliant. Something and engineer can love.

LoL!

Don’t know about brilliant.

But my father was a mechanical engineer. My two grandfathers were master machinists, as was one great grandfather on my mother’s side.

Every guy in my family tree (uncles and cousins) were either electrical or mechanical engineers. And one female cousin is a mathematician who had a career in genetics research.

So i guess it’s sorta in the DNA somehow.

My degree was in business (accounting)/CompSci. Much to the disappointment of my old man. So I semi-missed the boat I guess. But the mathematical inclination and geek tendencies are still definitely present.

 

[HolmeBass]

LoL!

Don’t know about brilliant.

But my father was a mechanical engineer. My two grandfathers were master machinists, as was one great grandfather on my mother’s side.

Every guy in my family tree (uncles and cousins) were either electrical or mechanical engineers. And one female cousin is a mathematician who had a career in genetics research.

So i guess it’s sorta in the DNA somehow.

My degree was in business (accounting)/CompSci. Much to the disappointment of my old man. So I semi-missed the boat I guess. But the mathematical inclination and geek tendencies are still definitely present.

Every time I have to explain to a student that the “7” in a G7 chord (or any dominant 7 chord) is actually a minor 7, but that Gmin7 actually refers to the third, but to use the diatonic 7 in a chord you call it Gmaj7, and that there is the, at first blush, entirely self-conflictingly named Gminmaj7 chord, I wish this nomenclature was more systematic. In all honesty, it’s a complete mess. Almost like it grew in an ad hoc fashion over centuries. (These are the jokes, folks!)

 

[Matty Koff]

You guys aren't wrong in calling them passing notes as far as I'm concerned. But you're pulling those passing notes from somewhere. Theory does not stop if you utilize the chromatic scale. Reinforcing what I said earlier.

Play a C major arpeggio or pull notes from the Ionian mode in C in some rhythmic variation you can repeat and spread it out over a single measure. I.e. 4 count. I did something like a half note for the root and a 16th note triplet using the 3rd 5th or 7th or utilizing scale tones. For this measure you're staying within the key of C.

For the second measure. Just a Ab A Bb B then back into the C. I maybe played swung quarter notes with a 16th note feel.

Now.. just by looking at the notes I immediately notice something familiar. IF you aren't aware, C major has no sharps or flats so we know that in that chromatic run A B and C fall within the key of C major.. we know that Ab and Bb do not. It's possible for A B or C to fall within a mode from different scale or key other than C major, but it's not possible for Ab and Bb to be in the key of C major.

Now not every combination is going to sound good in a song written in C major. But if you really get determined, using your ear and a process of elimination you might find some that offer an interesting place to go from C major at the right point in time. Think of patterns like Ab, Bb, C. Or Ab, Bb, B. Or Ab, A, B. or Ab, A, B, C <-- that's A harmonic minor, or A, B, C, that's natural minor which is also the relative minor of C and therefore you will be back in the key of C. Let's point out natural minor and harmonic minor again. You can pull notes from both those modes when playing lead on a guitar or trying to make a bass line just a touch more interesting. Or it could be A Dorian, putting you in the key of G maj. (i think..right? right?) It could be tail end of A, Bb could be the tail end of G minor...

Me personally, I've spent infinitely more time utilizing this in practice than I've thought about it for any other reason than to acknowledge that chromatic fills are indeed a process of shifting between modes.

 

[40Hz]

In all honesty, it’s a complete mess.

Yep. In my IT work I used to explain to my clients that there’s a big difference between something that works and something that’s been made to work. The first is an actual solution. The second is what’s called a kludge. Kludges are ok for a temporary “quick fix.” But they tend to multiply over time. And they’ll end up biting you on the arse sooner or later.

Moral: it’s always better to fix than it is to finagle.

 

[Pacman]

Every time I have to explain to a student that the “7” in a G7 chord (or any dominant 7 chord) is actually a minor 7, but that Gmin7 actually refers to the third, but to use the diatonic 7 in a chord you call it Gmaj7, and that there is the, at first blush, entirely self-conflictingly named Gminmaj7 chord, I wish this nomenclature was more systematic. In all honesty, it’s a complete mess. Almost like it grew in an ad hoc fashion over centuries. (These are the jokes, folks!)

In chord symbols, min always refers to the 3rd, maj always refers to the 7th, aug always refers to the 5th. Not that hard to remember.

 

[HolmeBass]

In chord symbols, min always refers to the 3rd, maj always refers to the 7th, aug always refers to the 5th. Not that hard to remember.

I have said that many, many times. But there is nevertheless an inconsistency in that all other diatonic intervals go unmodified, EXCEPT for the 7th. 6, 9, 11, 13, all indicate diatonic additions to the triad. Only 7 indicates a non-diatonic interval, while maj7 is used for the diatonic interval.

 

[BBQisgood]

I have said that many, many times. But there is nevertheless an inconsistency in that all other diatonic intervals go unmodified, EXCEPT for the 7th. 6, 9, 11, 13, all indicate diatonic additions to the triad. Only 7 indicates a non-diatonic interval, while maj7 is used for the diatonic interval.

In older texts I used to see dom7 written.
I always thought they made the change because it looks too much like “dim”. Any truth to that?

 

[Matty Koff]

I've been spelling it wrong.. modal shift.. back to the question of "passing notes" that don't fall within the key of a song where the key does not change.