So you wanna make the audience deaf too?

[MikeBass]

Well it's hard to argue with loud music fans, I personaly would never stick around at a show where the volume is uncomfortably loud, I don't care whos playing. Some people like it tho, and far be it from me to tell them what to do. On the same foot I don't go around telling gangsters if they keep up they're lifestyle they will end up dead or in jail, they already know this, and I don't try to convince crackheads that they're drug of choice is bad for them. screw em' they're on thier own as far as I'm concerned. I don't agree with homosexuality either but I don't try to take a stand against it, let em' marry each other IDK. I have better things to do than try and convince other people thier life choices arn't the best, I'd be wasting my time. But on the other hand when a soundguy is screwing up my bands sound, I sure as hell am gonna give him my 2 cents. and thats my 2 cents. as always this statement is IMO.

+1 on your whole post.

I'm not trying to tell anyone how they should proceed, but when someone who is completely mis-informed and says that smoking crack doesn't hurt you, well, they're an idiot.

This isn't a subjective topic.
It's factual.

There isn't an "opinion" as to what is going to happen. It's a fact.

To enter into a dangerously loud environment such as a concert IS a choice yes. But to to deny or argue that the results are damaging and/or unsafe for your ears is again, silly. It's fact.
Yeah, live the way you want, by all means.

 

[rockstarbassist]

Overly loud bar bands make me leave, or at the very least move even if I have to stand the rest of the night, and even if they're good (usually aren't). I usually think my bands play too loud then everyone bitches b/c nobody else agrees but whatever.
I'm on the customer's side more than I'm on the stage, so I can tell when stuff just needs to be cut a bit. I dunno. Depends on the venue usually.
However I haven't played a practice or really a show w/out protection of some sort in a long time and my ears thank me. Usually I rely in my trusty -15db custom molded Westones but sometimes I just use my cheapie Hearos and those work fine.
However I'm about to bust out my IEM set up again so that'll be ftw. x 200.

 

[ChrisPbass]

I have become my dad. There is a tendency among young people to do things w/o thinking about the future; to have a 'who gives us a f*(0' attitude towards things that can be harmful. *raises hand*
You can cut your hair, cover stupid tattoos, rebuild your credit, DO TIME and get out etc...but, so far, you CANNOT get your ears back.
Tinnitus ain't no picnic.
so don't be stupid. listen to the stupid old people.

 

[MikeBass]

Yes. I've always wondered why all those warnings in McDonald's about coffee or tea being HOT. Probably somebody expected that coffee would be served cold, or that HM bands play ambient music.

Hey man, I get your joke there, but seriously, do you expect to go to a show and be subjected to noise levels that are damaging?

Sorry, I've seen, and played in HM bands that are not loud and still sounded good.

Queensryche came through town a while back and a buddy and I went.
We both commented how not loud it was and they sounded GOOOOOD.
Well, that and those guys can flat out play their asses off, so at any volume you walk away spent!

 

[DWBass]

I can ga-runn-tee that in Kenny G's rider for that show there is a clause that the opening acts only get limited channels on the board, limited overall db (volume) and it will be written in some way that they cannot have a better mix.
That is typical and standard for pretty much EVERY headlining act with regards to their opening acts.

There has to be a significiant difference in over all mix with the better going to the headlining act.

Sound strange?? It's not at all.

Really?? I'd love to see that in writing! If I was a non headling act, I'd be livid if my mix was purposely tainted over some nonsense like that!

Secondly, there was no limit to any db as these artists mix was pure loud and mud! Just sounded like the volume was turned up all the way to distortion! I'm sorry, that is not professional! Deliberately make a professional act sound horrible?? Sorry, not while I'm trying to sell records!

I just think Kenny G had a real pro at the console (couldn't have been the same guy for every act) and secondly, he has musicians in his band who know how to play in a balanced environment.

 

[MikeBass]

Really?? I'd love to see that in writing! If I was a non headling act, I'd be livid if my mix was purposely tainted over some nonsense like that!

Secondly, there was no limit to any db as these artists mix was pure loud and mud! Just sounded like the volume was turned up all the way to distortion! I'm sorry, that is not professional! Deliberately make a professional act sound horrible?? Sorry, not while I'm trying to sell records!

I just think Kenny G had a real pro at the console (couldn't have been the same guy for every act) and secondly, he has musicians in his band who know how to play in a balanced environment.

I am SOOOO not making this up.
Most of the time, the open acts have limited channels on the board, limited # of monitor mixes, limited use of lighting, limited # of effects available on the board etc...It's super political like that.

I'll search for a rider and post a link.

 

[Burlington]

I am SOOOO not making this up.
Most of the time, the open acts have limited channels on the board, limited # of monitor mixes, limited use of lighting, limited # of effects available on the board etc...It's super political like that.

I'll search for a rider and post a link.

This has been common knowledge around my group for some time.

 

[AntekStalich]

Hey man, I get your joke there, but seriously, do you expect to go to a show and be subjected to noise levels that are damaging?

Sorry, I've seen, and played in HM bands that are not loud and still sounded good.

Queensryche came through town a while back and a buddy and I went.
We both commented how not loud it was and they sounded GOOOOOD.
Well, that and those guys can flat out play their asses off, so at any volume you walk away spent!

I'm basically not that serious throughout all this talk
Honestly, what I really believe in is:
1. A good HM band can play selectively. They make an impression of being very loud at reasonable SPL.
2. A good soundman can only help the band and the audience
3. Yes I like to feel the kickdrum in my guts. The bass level has to match the level of the kick. Guitars and vocals should be mixed in accordingly
4. I sympathize with HM fans who like loud music. Let them have it. It is their health, not mine. Same, many people do extreme sports. Let them do it. I do not do extreme sports.
5. A law-suit for being deafened at a metal (or rock) concert, where you are aware what you are attending to is a sign of hypocrisy or greediness, imho.

It was... hmmmm... 1978? Was it Nazareth having a concert in Warsaw? At that time, 2 x 11 kW PA was a monster for that venue. I heard ringing in my ears for next 24 hours. Bad experience.

I must agree to one view: a band producing unselective loud sound delivers a kind of "black pudding" that is very bad to listeners.

 

[rockstarbassist]

I am SOOOO not making this up.
Most of the time, the open acts have limited channels on the board, limited # of monitor mixes, limited use of lighting, limited # of effects available on the board etc...It's super political like that.

I'll search for a rider and post a link.

This has been common knowledge around my group for some time.

Yeah same here. It's too common to NOT be that way.

 

[MikeBass]

Yeah same here. It's too common to NOT be that way.

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[rockstarbassist]

Yup. You get raked over when you're just given the "opportunity" to open up for a real band.
In the end it makes sense, but yeah. It's no real trade secret as to why most opening acts sound horrendous.

 

[Metal Matt]

If ANYONE here thinks that earplugs alone are enough, and the "louder the better"......you're stupid, an idiot and really have zero clue what you're talking about.

So, you think those little foam ear plugs do enough?
Think that it's art and has to be loud?
You're an idiot and a fool.

Flame me all you want, because when you do, you're just proving to me how much more of an idiot you are.

The argument that "no one held a gun to their head" is childish.

The only ones here doing any flaming are people like you throwing around insults like idiot and moron all over this thread. Look I'm just saying that in the case of certain genres, it is considered part of the art, and it should be loud. I've seen a lot of bands that were so loud everyone in the room looked like they woke up from a nap after the band was done. THAT is the point for some sub-genres of heavy music. It's about the music having a way heavier physical impact than a normal show. Not denying or arguing that it's harmful to the ears, it is. I can say that I've never experienced any affect on my hearing when I wear earplugs. I can also say that not wearing earplugs when I saw [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] was a big mistake and it permanently affected my hearing for sure. My mistake to live with. The band aren't the idiots for playing so loud, I am for not wearing ear plugs to their show.

People accept the risks of smoking cigarettes even though it's bad for you and I sort of view this topic the same way. It's worth the risk for me to experience these bands because there's nothing like not only hearing riffs but feeling them shake every part of you.

The way I've always seen it when my band plays shows is that yeah, we play loud enough to do some damage, but it's not really our problem when someone chooses to not wear earplugs and ends up with a day or two of ringing ears.

 

[GregShadoan]

An open question for all those who think they should be able to play as loud as they want because "it's cool". How would you feel if you went to a movie with your children, and were blinded for 24 hours?

 

[eddievanbassman]

Places always wanna crank up the bass drum wayyyyy too f***in loud.....

 

[MikeBass]

The only ones here doing any flaming are people like you throwing around insults like idiot and moron all over this thread. Look I'm just saying that in the case of certain genres, it is considered part of the art, and it should be loud. I've seen a lot of bands that were so loud everyone in the room looked like they woke up from a nap after the band was done. THAT is the point for some sub-genres of heavy music. It's about the music having a way heavier physical impact than a normal show. Not denying or arguing that it's harmful to the ears, it is. I can say that I've never experienced any affect on my hearing when I wear earplugs. I can also say that not wearing earplugs when I saw [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] was a big mistake and it permanently affected my hearing for sure. My mistake to live with. The band aren't the idiots for playing so loud, I am for not wearing ear plugs to their show.

People accept the risks of smoking cigarettes even though it's bad for you and I sort of view this topic the same way. It's worth the risk for me to experience these bands because there's nothing like not only hearing riffs but feeling them shake every part of you.

The way I've always seen it when my band plays shows is that yeah, we play loud enough to do some damage, but it's not really our problem when someone chooses to not wear earplugs and ends up with a day or two of ringing ears.

Take the time and think about what I wrote.....again, if you think that there isn't any affect or problem associated with harmful (fact) sound levels, then well, you are an idiot and a fool (not "you" per say.

"People like me".....ones who have zero issues with telling the truth and calling something, in this case, dangerous when it is. And just pointing out that yeah, if you think that your "art" is justified somehow by potentally hurting someone, who really, may not be expecting to be hurt on some levels, then sorry, you are an idiot, a fool and are clueless- all in the name of art (?).

Sunn IMO are a bunch of idiots if they come out loud enough to do damage to listeners.
Art or not.

I can accept to a point that yes, there is a point to the impact of high volume levels. I get that.
But like in my original post, if you think that there isn't a problem with subjecting youself to that (and you proved my point already that there is-) then yeah, you have to be absent in brain cells someplace.

You're not an idiot for listening and going to said shows. You are if you don't wear ear plugs and the like and expect that you'll be OK.

The "if it's too loud, you're too old" attitude is indeed stupid and idiotic.

Oh, also, next time if you want to debat this, quote my WHOLE post.
Subjective editing on your part led my comments a little out of context to a degree..

 

[MikeBass]

Here it is for you.....

OK, I'll lay it out for you guys as simple as this...a few of you here know me personally, I've played some major tours as a sideman. So, I'm not poking away in some small club for the last 15 years (even though I LOVE playing anywhere) so I'll bring it from a professional musician side (sorry, not trying to be cocky...)
If ANYONE here thinks that earplugs alone are enough, and the "louder the better"......you're stupid, an idiot and really have zero clue what you're talking about.

I now wear these:

$4200 later I can hear OK.
Just OK.

So, you think those little foam ear plugs do enough?
Think that it's art and has to be loud?
You're an idiot and a fool.

Flame me all you want, because when you do, you're just proving to me how much more of an idiot you are.

The argument that "no one held a gun to their head" is childish.

It takes only a few minutes for irreversable damage to occur.
So, MBV takes the stage and comes out at 130db.
You turn to walk out because it's too loud.
By the time you get to the back of the venue, your hearring is damaged.

I have a 50-60db dip from about 220hz all the way to 4khz.
NOT fun.

Read this:

http://www.abelard.org/hear/hear.php
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_impairment

I thought the same things as many are saying with regards to volume.
I liked it loud.
I was a fool. And so are you if you think it's cool, art or anything else when it's loud enough to cause damage.

 

[ksandvik]

It is true that the audience could decide if they want to become deaf or not, same with musicians. It's a free country. However, I have a hard time rationalizing the idea that the musicians like to become deaf -- because they need their ears for doing music. Unless it's a death wish or otherwise an excuse to stop being musicians.

 

[dj150888]

Yep but the volume levels today are astronomical compared with the seventies and eighties, thanks to solid state transformers, neo cabs and so on. Plus people glued to iPod buds since childhood. This will be interesting for the next generation. Some might do money on hearing related products and services.

....erm, I'm guessing you've never heard of Motorhead? The entire idea of, "everything louder than everything else" started in the seventies and eighties. I think Motorhead still hold the record for loudest performance of all time. If they don't now, they did for a considerable time.

 

[GregShadoan]

It is true that the audience could decide if they want to become deaf or not, same with musicians. It's a free country. However, I have a hard time rationalizing the idea that the musicians like to become deaf -- because they need their ears for doing music. Unless it's a death wish or otherwise an excuse to stop being musicians.

Really?? Is there !!!WARNING - YOU MAY LOSE YOUR HEARING PERMANENTLY IF YOU ATTEND THIS CONCERT UNLESS YOU USE HEARING PROTECTION!!! at the entrance to venues? I have never seen one. Maybe I don't get out much, but (in the US) I have never seen anything that gives an audience member a choice to do permanent damage to their hearing anywhere. You say it's "implied", I say not. No one should have to be assaulted in the name of entertainment.

 

[Metal Matt]

Take the time and think about what I wrote.....again, if you think that there isn't any affect or problem associated with harmful (fact) sound levels, then well, you are an idiot and a fool (not "you" per say.

"People like me".....ones who have zero issues with telling the truth and calling something, in this case, dangerous when it is. And just pointing out that yeah, if you think that your "art" is justified somehow by potentally hurting someone, who really, may not be expecting to be hurt on some levels, then sorry, you are an idiot, a fool and are clueless- all in the name of art (?).

Sunn IMO are a bunch of idiots if they come out loud enough to do damage to listeners.
Art or not.

I can accept to a point that yes, there is a point to the impact of high volume levels. I get that.
But like in my original post, if you think that there isn't a problem with subjecting youself to that (and you proved my point already that there is-) then yeah, you have to be absent in brain cells someplace.

You're not an idiot for listening and going to said shows. You are if you don't wear ear plugs and the like and expect that you'll be OK.

The "if it's too loud, you're too old" attitude is indeed stupid and idiotic.

Oh, also, next time if you want to debat this, quote my WHOLE post.
Subjective editing on your part led my comments a little out of context to a degree..

My opinion on whether or not art justifies the high volumes is that it does... art reflects life, and life is sometimes dangerous, so I have no problem with bands using volumes in the 115-125db range. But I suppose that's a whole other topic and one that's way too rooted in opinion for me to care to get into it with someone else. Besides, I feel a lot of these bands draw in people that know what to expect anyways. And the ones that don't know what they're in for, should probably take a look at the stage full of amps and try to find some earplugs before the band starts. I know a lot of venues put up warnings on their doors when Sunn is playing to let people know it's going to be extremely loud.

We do a lot of things in society that aren't good for us, but we enjoy it anyways. For some it's worth it to coat their lungs with tar, destroy their livers with booze and wreck their overall health with terrible food and sometimes it's risking our hearing to experience a band. We find enjoyment in things that aren't good for us sometimes and I think that's a part of being human, granted sometimes it only makes sense to the person doing it. I don't think seeing a super loud band is any different than someone that wants to jump off a cliff with a parachute on their back. If it makes you happy, if you find some enjoyment from it, go for it, otherwise stay the hell away. I don't agree that a band is somehow responsible for the safety of the audience. I think it's only fair to give warning of how loud the show is going to be, and that's it. After that, it's up to the audience member to deal with what the band is putting forth. Shouldn't be on the band to change what they do because a few don't like it.