Solid State Amps with Overdrive/Distortion?

[Doner Designs]

Bracing myself for hate mail and trying to be diplomatic here. It's not you, it's me I'm sure.

I hate to bring up the topic because some amp makers that I truly have a massive amount of respect for have made the choice to include some kind of distortion/overdrive feature on their products. It's probably just me, but this somehow seems wrong for a bass amp.

An OD channel on a tube amp seems proper because it's real. And a solid state OD pedal is ok because it's an outboard effect. But manufacturing "fake" distortion on a SS amp bothers me enough that it automatically disqualifies an amplifier from my consideration (including some great ones). Anyone else feel this way?

Gain, volume and as much EQ flexibility as can fit on the front panel is what I want. Only. HPF/LPF is ok to me because it's a form of EQ. Compression I'm a little on the fence about but generally prefer to see that as an outboard thing.

I am genuinely curious if I'm a freak on this topic and hope I'm not offending anyone.

 

[Passinwind]

It's no less real than using a tube IMO. I don't really want it in a tube amp either, or a pedal. But if I did, putting it in the amp would make me happier than having it on the floor. Vive la difference!

 

[Stevorebob]

I don’t get why intentional overdrive or distortion would be any more “fake” with solid state than with tubes. Granted, some solid state OD is less musical than tube OD and some is just meh, but it’s not like it’s been sampled.

 

[JimmyM]

I have some solid state distortion pedals, and most of them are badass. I also have SS amps that will distort if you crank the gain hard, and they're badass, too. Nothing beats tube distortion, especially power tube distortion, but some of the world's biggest amp snobs also use pedals, and I can't argue with the results.

 

[rob_thebassman]

Alex webster uses a b3k with his rig, and last I heard he were using solid state

 

[filmtex]

My Ampeg BA-210 v2 has the "Scrambler" circuit on it. Sometimes I use it, and sometimes I don't. Just like TV- it has an on/off button! YMMV

 

[Kro]

An OD channel on a tube amp seems proper because it's real. And a solid state OD pedal is ok because it's an outboard effect. But manufacturing "fake" distortion on a SS amp bothers me enough that it automatically disqualifies an amplifier from my consideration (including some great ones). Anyone else feel this way?

OD via SS is no less real or authentic than tube distortion - many of the earliest distortion effects were SS and weren't necessarily developed to try and mimic tubes - they were just a desirable effect.

If you look at the history and technical way that SS and tube distortions operate, you will likely find them both to be very authentic and deserving of respect in their own right.

Personally, I find that harmonic enrichment of the type that distortion gives to be a critical part of tone - either by its inclusion, or omission, it's extremely important. Just as critical as, say, being able to adjust lows, mids, or highs on an EQ section.

Is SS EQ any less authentic than tube based EQ?

Think of it less as the amp trying to be something its not (which isn't the case in most situations), and more that the amp is trying to be a more well rounded tool designed to give players the baseline control over their tone that they need.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I've always been less-than-overwhelmed by onboard solid state OD...same holds true for any number of external pedals. This was my one minor niggle about the Ampeg "Scrambler" although others find it quite useful. I have run across a few SS pedals that do a really good job of emulating a tube pre / tube power amp pushed to the rails...my favorite is the Fairfields Barbershop which I've mated with both the Ampeg SCR-DI and ToneHammer as tone stacks.

Riis

 

[Kro]

I've always been less-than-overwhelmed by onboard solid state OD...same holds true for any number of external pedals. This was my one minor niggle about the Ampeg "Scrambler" although others find it quite useful. I have run across a few SS pedals that do a really good job of emulating a tube pre / tube power amp pushed to the rails...my favorite is the Fairfields Barbershop which I've mated with both the Ampeg SCR-DI and ToneHammer as tone stacks.

Riis

If the only goal is to exactly emulate a tube amp, then more often than not, one will be disappointed by anything not the real thing.

If the goal is for baseline characteristics of tone such as harmonic distortion and compression, then the world is your oyster as to how you get it, and IMO no method should be overlooked (though everybody will have their preference as to what flavor they like best).

Trying to think of another way to put this... for instance, a great rye whiskey makes for a really bad Scotch. Does that make the rye any less great?

This is similar - use what sounds good to you regardless of how you get it!

 

[Doner Designs]

It's no less real than using a tube IMO. I don't really want it in a tube amp either, or a pedal. But if I did, putting it in the amp would make me happier than having it on the floor. Vive la difference! View attachment 3306432

The reason I called it “fake” which is a poor choice of words, is that tube distortion is a natural side effect (no pun intended) of tubes being overdriven to clipping which has a pleasant sound. You can’t easily build a tube amp without this capability. As I understand it, natural solid state clipping sounds terrible. Solid state distortion that sounds good is generally some kind of tube emulation rather than what a transistor amp naturally sounds like when pushed into clipping.

Rather than call it fake it’s really an onboard effects pedal. So why not throw in octave and chorus as well. Guitar combo amps have long done this perhaps because guitar players almost always have some sort of effects in use.

I wonder if the trend to building distortion as an effect into bass heads indicates that it has become a staple of modern bass playing vs a spice thrown in on rare occasion. Perhaps I’m a dying breed of purist (got rid of all my pedals too except EQ and compression).

Glad to hear the friendly rebuttals because like I said in initial post some of the makers who are doing this are among the most respected in the business. I’m just seeking to understand the trend.

 

[Kro]

The reason I consider it “fake” which is perhaps a poor choice of words, is that tube distortion is a natural side effect (no pun intended) of tubes being overdriven to clipping which has a pleasant sound.

When it comes to talking about tube amps that sound good when overdriven, odds are they were specifically engineered to operate that way. If an engineer so wanted to, or didn't take as much care, I would wager it is easily possible for a tube amp to also be designed that doesn't overdrive pleasantly. There is a lot of engineering work that goes into making an amp of any sort sound musical. It's not like a tube just magically makes things sound great.

As I understand it, natural solid state clipping sounds terrible.

This is an incorrect assumption. Depending on how the circuit is engineered, solid state clipping can also sound natural and desirable. Even SS power amp distortion that in no way is trying to emulate tubes. There are any number of SS amps that are held in high regard for the way they perform when pushed.

Rather than call it fake it’s really an onboard effects pedal.

That is not true for innumerable SS amps, that are specifically engineered in the same way that the tube amps you reference are to sound good when driven to distortion. That goes for preamp and power amp sections.

I’m just seeking to understand the trend.

Just to reiterate, one trend is to have well designed SS amps that overdrive naturally and pleasantly. It's more than just an effect in the same sense that a pedal is. Two major amp brands that immediately come to mind that are engineered specifically to distort gracefully and even desirably are certain Mesa and GK amps, but they're by no means alone.

I'm not trying to take anything away from what tubes and tube amps do, but do a little digging in the realm of respectable professional-grade SS amps, and you might be surprised by what you find - or at the very least it might help with clearing up some of your misconceptions.

 

[Doner Designs]

When it comes to talking about tube amps that sound good when overdriven, odds are they were specifically engineered to operate that way. If an engineer so wanted to, or didn't take as much care, I would wager it is easily possible for a tube amp to also be designed that doesn't overdrive pleasantly. There is a lot of engineering work that goes into making an amp of any sort sound musical. It's not like a tube just magically makes things sound great.



This is an incorrect assumption. Depending on how the circuit is engineered, solid state clipping can also sound natural and desirable. Even SS power amp distortion that in no way is trying to emulate tubes. There are any number of SS amps that are held in high regard for the way they perform when pushed.



That is not true for innumerable SS amps, that are specifically engineered in the same way that the tube amps you reference are to sound good when driven to distortion. That goes for preamp and power amp sections.



Just to reiterate, one trend is to have well designed SS amps that overdrive naturally and pleasantly. It's more than just an effect in the same sense that a pedal is. Two major amp brands that immediately come to mind that are engineered specifically to distort gracefully and even desirably are certain Mesa and GK amps, but they're by no means alone.

I'm not trying to take anything away from what tubes and tube amps do, but do a little digging in the realm of respectable professional-grade SS amps, and you might be surprised by what you find - or at the very least it might help with clearing up some of your misconceptions.

I appreciate the education! Thanks!

I have a Mesa D800+ and a GK Fusion 800. Was more thinking of Genzler and now Berg which are purely SS but have distortion onboard with no tubes. I have nothing but respect for Jeff and Jim and their amps but was perplexed by this particular feature.

 

[Kro]

I appreciate the education! Thanks!

I have a Mesa D800+ and a GK Fusion 800. Was more thinking of Genzler and now Berg which are purely SS but have distortion onboard with no tubes. I have nothing but respect for Jeff and Jim and their amps but was perplexed by this particular feature.

I agree with you that there are many amps (good ones too!) that are based off of an emulation circuit and a power section. If authentic is your thing, then I 100% understand the preference to use an actual Ampeg tube amp over something like a VT Bass 500. I also understand how you might just see those as something like an amplified effects unit - but those aren't by any means representative of all SS amps.

It's a feature simply because it's convenient. Low weight, smaller size, arguably less maintenance... there's a lot to like for players that might not be quite so romantic about their gear, and see their amp mores as a means to an end. For what it's worth, I probably have one leg on either side of that fence - so I totally get where you're coming from.

It's just hard not to defend solid state after, say, the rush of experiencing something like a cranked GK RB live on stage.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

Was more thinking of Genzler
I have nothing but respect for Jeff and Jim and their amps but was perplexed by this particular feature.

To add a little salt and pepper.

I was and to a point still am the same as you. Hate distortion, do not need it built in.
I have the Genzler Magellan 800 and been using it for well over a year and only use the Drive channel.

It is not a crazy make things crunchy sounding thing like most, you need to crank the knob to get too crazy. My setting at noon still sounds clean yet adds a bit of neat yummy that makes the notes cut through with a bit of something extra to it. Hard to say in words but It Is Good. From Reggae, Church to County Thump it is always on and always drool.

Even at Church band the Genzler is used as a DI only sent Post with the same settings so the Drive goodness (again not crazy distortion) gets sent to the house and it is great for everything. Even the recent Christmas songs had a beautiful Organ like feel to them with just clean Dingwall Bass into light Genzler Drive. drool drool drool

I still Hate distortion but Love some Genzler Drive.

 

[Doner Designs]

I was and to a point still am the same as you. Hate distortion, do not need it built in.
I have the Genzler Magellan 800 and been using it for well over a year and only use the Drive channel.

It is not a crazy make things crunchy sounding thing like most, you need to crank the knob to get too crazy. My setting at noon still sounds clean yet adds a bit of neat yummy that makes the notes cut through with a bit of something extra to it. Hard to say in words but It Is Good. From Reggae, Church to County Thump it is always on and always drool.

Even at Church band the Genzler is used as a DI only sent Post with the same settings so the Drive goodness (again not crazy distortion) gets sent to the house and it is great for everything. Even the recent Christmas songs had a beautiful Organ like feel to them with just clean Dingwall Bass into light Genzler Drive. drool drool drool

I still Hate distortion but Love some Genzler Drive.

I knew that given the popularity I must be missing something.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

I knew that given the popularity I must be missing something.

Just adding some salt an pepper to your soup.

 

[Basshappi]

Distortion circuits built into SS amps is not a new trend.
The venerable Acoustic 360 immediately comes to mind, as do the early "Festival" series bass amps built by Peavey. I think the old Gibson 'Thor" amps had it too, but it's been a long time since I messed with one so I might be misremembering that, same goes for the old Kustom amps.

 

[Passinwind]

Glad to hear the friendly rebuttals because like I said in initial post some of the makers who are doing this are among the most respected in the business. I’m just seeking to understand the trend.

There have always been amps like that, at least back as far as the 70s. Peavey and Polytone come to mind, for starters. A tube distortion channel often uses solid state diode clippers, and is mostly about preamp distortion anyway, so I don't really see that as being any more of a purist approach than building a Tube Screamer circuit into an amp. Purist is Mingus unamplified, and telling the audience to sit down and shut up. I've actually experienced that and it changed how I perceive things quite a bit.

In what passes for my world there's really not much organic or natural about any type of amplification. But I embrace that and try to understand and leverage all available technologies to get to wherever I or a customer need to go.

 

[okcrum]

I would not think of overdriving FET preamp stages in a SS amp as fake. It's essentially the same effect as overdriving the triode stages in an SVT-CL preamp, so you can get some grind without killing small animals in the vicinity.

 

[JimmyM]

When it comes to talking about tube amps that sound good when overdriven, odds are they were specifically engineered to operate that way. If an engineer so wanted to, or didn't take as much care, I would wager it is easily possible for a tube amp to also be designed that doesn't overdrive pleasantly. There is a lot of engineering work that goes into making an amp of any sort sound musical. It's not like a tube just magically makes things sound great.

Actually, the classic designs were not designed that way. It was accidentally discovered in the late 50's by players and became popular soon after. And Everett Hull, who started Ampeg, hated loud music, hated rock and roll, and absolutely hated distortion, and refused to cater to that market that wanted really high power and distortion. And yet, you crank one of their amps from those days and it sounds terrific. If he hadn't sold Ampeg in 67 and retired soon after, there would be no SVT or even V4B.