Solid state/class d vs tube amps

[catcauphonic]

Had an Ampeg SVP Pro several years ago. It was used but seemed to work fine for a couple of years. Then, absolutely cut out during a gig. Would not allow a signal to pass through it to my Crown Amp. Did everything I could to mess with it. It was not tubes (I have a tube Tester). It seems that probably the onboard relay would no longer latch in the to pass the signal through. And I couldn't find anyone to check it out that wasn't going to cost me a $150 or more dollars. Not worth the expense to me.

At the time, that was Vietnam Ampeg. Finally just gave up on it. And considered it a piece of crap. And a Goodwill donation.

If you leave me standing on a stage, period. I will no longer think you make any equipment I can depend on. So far that is not the experience I've had with Demeter, GK, Genzler, Crown, or QSC. Just saying. When Ampeg starting making stuff in VietNam, not a good idea in my book. They lost me as a customer.

Not a very big sample size to 'bass' your findings on

 

[mesaplayer83]

I don't think Sartori is trying to represent the views of anyone but himself.

Yeah, I got that and wasn't trying to infer otherwise - I also wasn't trying to say there was anything wrong with his preferences, FWIW...

 

[agedhorse]

Yeah, I got that and wasn't trying to infer otherwise - I also wasn't trying to say there was anything wrong with his preferences, FWIW...

Agreed, I emphasized this because on a few recent threads, some folks have seemed to be of the mindset that what didn't work for them couldn't work for others either without considering personal taste and music styles.

 

[mesaplayer83]

Agreed, I emphasized this because on a few recent threads, some folks have seemed to be of the mindset that what didn't work for them couldn't work for others either without considering personal taste and music styles.

Yeah, that seems to happen sometimes, lol...

 

[DavesnothereCA]

I think the reason tube amps are perceived as being more expensive is because they are harder to make. So you don't see cheap low watt tube amps like you do SS.

But when you compare used prices of good tube amps vs SS I feel like you can actually get a lot more bang for your buck with many tube amps.

~
Tube amps are not harder to make.

I built and repaired tube amps before I was even a musician, and still could do so today if required, as their circuitry has not evolved as much as that of s/s amps has.

The vast majority of what I learned about them during the 60s and 70s can still be applied today.

OTOH, tube amps cost more to make for two main reasons :

(1) Tube amps must include components not required in solid state amps, such as an output transformer, and they need a larger power transformer than s/s amps, to heat the tube filaments (and also because tube amps run power stages which generally are less efficient than some of the newer solid state amps such as Class 'D' models).

That has always been the case, and the 2nd reason is one which has become more true as more time has passed.

(2) As less tube amps are being made these days, makers cannot economize as much from the scale of mass production, whereas makers of s/s amps more often can.

It could be said that it is harder to build a tube amp which costs less than a certain amount of money, but they are not harder to build from a technical viewpoint.
~

 

[somebrains]

One of the best preamps ever made. But it ain't a tube amp. The power section makes a big difference.

I've thrown this preamp on a Strategy 400 or a Peavy tube power amp for giggles.
That gets closer to my old Mesa 400 with some grit helper.

The "OMG" factor when you plug it into a GK or Genz fx loop I find amusing.
Converts a solid state purist into an Ampeg fan with a twist of the left 5-position and right 5-position knobs.

BC really, if you need it just go buy it.
I don't get people.

~
Tube amps are not harder to make.

I built and repaired tube amps before I was even a musician, and still could do so today if required, as their circuitry has not evolved as much as that of s/s amps has.

The vast majority of what I learned about them during the 60s and 70s can still be applied today.

OTOH, tube amps cost more to make for two main reasons :

(1) Tube amps must include components not required in solid state amps, such as an output transformer, and they need a larger power transformer than s/s amps, to heat the tube filaments (and also because tube amps run power stages which generally are less efficient than some of the newer solid state amps, such as Class 'D' models).

That has always been the case, and the 2nd reason is one which has become more true as more time has passed.

(2) Now that less tube amps are being made these days, they cannot economize as much from the scale of mass production, whereas s/s amps can.

It could be said that it is harder to build a tube amp which costs less than a certain amount of money, but they are not harder to build from a technical viewpoint.
~

Awesome, wanna watch over my shoulder while I try to Hakko in a cap kit and some other service kit I bought from fliptops in my 70's SVT?
Just make sure I don't so something that requires an ambulance ride.

Local amp tech has had a bunch of guy's heads sitting for like 5 months.
We are all getting a little antsy.

 

[DavesnothereCA]

....Awesome, wanna watch over my shoulder while I try to Hakko in a cap kit and some other service kit I bought from fliptops in my 70's SVT?

Just make sure I don't so something that requires an ambulance ride....

~
Yes, tube amps do have higher voltages inside, and require due care while testing and repairing.

That doesn't negate what I said earlier though.
~

 

[Eddie LeBlanc]

$150 to fix a $600 or $700 preamp? That's not a bad price, actually. Anyway, there was a lot of misinformation in your post...please allow me to correct it.

First off, to the best of my knowledge, the SVP Pro was made in the USA under St. Louis Music and was discontinued by 2007 along with the rest of their preamps before LOUD moved operations to Vietnam and China. Second, a tube tester will tell you things like if a tube will light up, some of the fancier ones will test things like transconductance and other such big words, but it does not detect all faults in a tube. I've bought tubes that tested good before my eyes in a very good tube tester, then when I put them in the amp, they would crackle or distort or things of that nature. Third, the Vietnam era lasted from 2007 till 2008, and was one of many blunders the former head idiot of LOUD made that resulted in their board of directors asking for his resignation. Since then, not a single Ampeg product has been made in Vietnam.

Of course, I don't expect everyone to know the history of Ampeg, but the current owners of the Ampeg name were not responsible for your preamp whatsoever. And while the other companies you named are very good companies, I've seen and heard of products they made break, too.

I have a good old tube tester that does test transconductance. After all I have some very cool esoteric stereo tube audio gear like Mac, Conrad Johnson, and Audio Research, even some modified Dyna stuff that I modded myself.

I did change the tubes twice just to be sure. And they were good tubes. So I gave up on it. And went to a Demeter HBP1, much better design, and super reliable.

Maybe it was made in USA, personally I don't care. Won't trust one again. But yes you are right, it was made in USA. If you want it, message me.

 

[JimmyM]

I have a good old tube tester that does test transconductance. After all I have some very cool esoteric stereo tube audio gear like Mac, Conrad Johnson, and Audio Research, even some modified Dyna stuff that I modded myself.

I did change the tubes twice just to be sure. And they were good tubes. So I gave up on it. And went to a Demeter HBP1, much better design, and super reliable.

Maybe it was made in USA, personally I don't care. Won't trust one again. But yes you are right, it was made in USA. If you want it, message me.
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Thx but the Pro isn't my thang. I strictly use heads.

 

[Korladis]

Maybe for YOUR taste and music style, but others might not agree with what you like for THEIR taste and music style.

Obviously.

Just addressing an assumption I think exists on TB that everyone likes the sound of a bone clean electric bass while not liking that of an electric guitar the same way, whereas I hear the two as quite similarly not to my tastes.

 

[Eddie LeBlanc]

Not a very big sample size to 'bass' your findings on

Big enough for me. Especially when I had to bypass the amp, and only go straight into a crappy PA.

BTW, did I say I have been playing bass for over 5 decades??????? So I have had a ton of different amps in all those years. From Alamos, to Supros, to Fenders, to Voxes (actually had a real Vox Super Beatle), to Silvertones, to Kustoms (loved the roll and pleated), to Acoustics, to Peavey, and the list goes on and on. Started using Preamp and Power amps for a while back in the late 80s.

But I never had one leave me standing in silence in the middle of a song, at the start of a gig. Sorry, that makes that one data point good enough statistics in my book for right now. Just saying.

 

[Korladis]

I don't think Sartori is trying to represent the views of anyone but himself.

Indeed, thanks.

In case it wasn't clear to everyone else, I'm well aware that different people like different sounds and was only speaking for myself. I think that electric bass, like electric guitar, sounds better through an amp and cab than it does into a clean DI feed. I recognize that amps and especially cabs aren't transparent, and that's exactly why I like them. Because transparent doesn't sound good to me.

 

[agedhorse]

I have a good old tube tester that does test transconductance. After all I have some very cool esoteric stereo tube audio gear like Mac, Conrad Johnson, and Audio Research, even some modified Dyna stuff that I modded myself.

I did change the tubes twice just to be sure. And they were good tubes. So I gave up on it. And went to a Demeter HBP1, much better design, and super reliable.

Maybe it was made in USA, personally I don't care. Won't trust one again. But yes you are right, it was made in USA. If you want it, message me.

They are simple to repair IF you know exactly what you are doing and understand both the circuitry AND proper troubleshooting techniques.

 

[Drgonzonm]

J Darr wrote a book on troubleshooting tube amps. Most of the book is available on the web. You can find most schematics on the web also.

 

[beans-on-toast]

They are simple to repair IF you know exactly what you are doing and understand both the circuitry AND proper troubleshooting techniques.

Ford, whose electrical engineers couldn’t solve some problems they were having with a gigantic generator, called Steinmetz in to the plant. Upon arriving, Steinmetz rejected all assistance and asked only for a notebook, pencil and cot. According to Scott, Steinmetz listened to the generator and scribbled computations on the notepad for two straight days and nights. On the second night, he asked for a ladder, climbed up the generator and made a chalk mark on its side. Then he told Ford’s skeptical engineers to remove a plate at the mark and replace sixteen windings from the field coil. They did, and the generator performed to perfection. Henry Ford was thrilled until he got an invoice from General Electric in the amount of $10,000. Ford acknowledged Steinmetz’s success but balked at the figure. He asked for an itemized bill. Steinmetz, Scott wrote, responded personally to Ford’s request with the following:

Making chalk mark on generator $1.
Knowing where to make mark $9,999.

Ford paid the bill.


Read more: Invalid Link Removed

 

[agedhorse]

J Darr wrote a book on troubleshooting tube amps. Most of the book is available on the web. You can find most schematics on the web also.

I got Jack's book maybe 40 years ago, it's pretty simplistic.

 

[nostatic]

They are simple to repair IF you know exactly what you are doing and understand both the circuitry AND proper troubleshooting techniques.

"hold my beer while I fix this..."

 

[Drgonzonm]

I got Jack's book maybe 40 years ago, it's pretty simplistic.

have to start some place. As you said the early amps are not that complicated.

 

[agedhorse]

have to start some place. As you said the early amps are not that complicated.

Of course, but it can also give a false sense of confidence that can be very dangerous. IIRC, there wasn't all that much on safety in his book... actually it's on my bookshelf (1977 ed) so I did check on this and the safety stuff is horrible, absolutely insufficient for somebody who is trying to learn.

 

[Drgonzonm]

Of course, but it can also give a false sense of confidence that can be very dangerous. IIRC, there wasn't all that much on safety in his book... actually it's on my bookshelf (1977 ed) so I did check on this and the safety stuff is horrible, absolutely insufficient for somebody who is trying to learn.

Good catch,