Some Shade from Ron Carter

[StatesideRambler]

Agree. Which is why clank and rattle are not "added texture" in my world. They're avoidable gaffes that a more precise playing technique and a proper setup can help you avoid.

It depends on how one defines "avoidable gaffe" and "added texture."

I was never into indulging in the old excuse that says: "It's not a fault! It's a feature."

Sometimes it is an intended feature that doesn't appeal to another person. If you like it, it's a feature; if not, it's a flaw. The first fuzz tone was a flaw that the guy found a way to render musical.

 

[40Hz]

It depends on how one defines "avoidable gaffe" and "added texture."


Sometimes it is an intended feature that doesn't appeal to another person. If you like it, it's a feature; if not, it's a flaw. The first fuzz tone was a flaw that the guy found a way to render musical.

I'll respond by quoting one of my earlier posts:

My point in my earlier post was that a lot of what's considered "right" vs "wrong" in music comes down to differences in personal style and individual taste rather than actual substance. Which is why I included the disclaimer "in my world."

So I'm thinking we're both on the same page here

 

[BurningSkies]

How are people still being taken in and talking about this stupid and false quote.

 

[DJ Bebop]

As an isolated bass track.

Why would it get erased, it's what James Brown wanted and a big part of why it was a hit?

Listen to the actual release, not the example put up to highlight what Ray did. aka "isolated".

I remember reading an interview with Leland Sklar years ago. Pointing out what sounds clean and pretty may not be what's desired to cut through in the mix. People mistakenly look for bedroom tone in recordings, it's why some are far more successful at it than others.

The insults to his playing are to be expected. In the meantime he's on a classic loved by millions that also informed generations of bassists after him. I'd take that.

Yes to this, if one listens to the original post I posted, after the 4:10 mark. The track plays again with the final mix, with the whole band and bass in its place in the mix

 

[DJ Bebop]

Again, I disagree. I think it would likely have been stiff with "better" playing. That's what others were doing at the time. Brown (both of them) went for a feel vs. textbook perfection.

Again, Squire's sound wasn't meant to be heard in isolation. I think his playing was great and groundbreaking. It made Roundabout.

as an example...

 

[Brad Johnson]

Excellent example. And would this song be better with cleaner technique and note choices?

On Rosanna, I didn't realize that I was playing the beginning of the chorus wrong until I heard the isolated track. What I was doing was probably more musically "correct", what he did was easier (a hammer on-octave from a fifth below instead of a whole step). The song still sounds great.

 

[pfschim]

this thread, particularly as it evolved into the discussion around isolated tracks, is an interesting read and listen.

I have said this before, but this thread re-hashes the idea that, as modern bass players, we tend to work very hard to get super well articulated bass lines down cold, very precise .... and then you go and listen to some of these isolated bass parts to monster tunes and players and you realize how loose and downright messy they can get at times (although the Jamerson track on I Can't Help Myself is pretty tight) ... and yet, they fit the overall recordings perfectly. I was particularly struck by the Toto track ... way simpler/loose than I would have imagined for a band thats final track sound is so highly produced and tight as can be.

it's a good lesson to learn ... not necessarily to play poorly, but that perhaps super clean, highly articulated notes are not always whats called for.

cool thread

 

[ElMon]

this thread, particularly as it evolved into the discussion around isolated tracks, is an interesting read and listen.

I have said this before, but this thread re-hashes the idea that, as modern bass players, we tend to work very hard to get super well articulated bass lines down cold, very precise .... and then you go and listen to some of these isolated bass parts to monster tunes and players and you realize how loose and downright messy they can get at times (although the Jamerson track on I Can't Help Myself is pretty tight) ... and yet, they fit the overall recordings perfectly. I was particularly struck by the Toto track ... way simpler/loose than I would have imagined for a band thats final track sound is so highly produced and tight as can be.

it's a good lesson to learn ... not necessarily to play poorly, but that perhaps super clean, highly articulated notes are not always whats called for.

cool thread

It's why most modern players (local/on the magazines/whatevs) leave me cold. They don't have that grit.
That special sauce.

Mingus yelled and played out of time.

James Brown can't be set to a metronome.

David Hungate flailed all over a track and that KILLED

Jamerson's strings were so old they had leprosy.

They were all sloppy, beautiful, highly-original freaks.

Off to start a punk band, a quarter-tone below A440

 

[40Hz]

Excellent example. And would this song be better with cleaner technique and note choices?

Dunno 'bout dat. But IMO it would have been a far better if they kept it as a straightforward pop/rock number like the opening had going for it. Maybe if they dropped the superfluous horn section, and didn't overproduce and "sweeten" the living tar out of like they did.

 

[cnltb]

as an example...

As an example that music can sound good even when the bass is played quite well?

 

[DJ Bebop]

It's why most modern players (local/on the magazines/whatevs) leave me cold. They don't have that grit.
That special sauce.

Mingus, yelled and played out of time.

My dad, an old piano player would tell me stories of Mingus being hard on piano players.
Mingus came through town. So my dad got tickets and took my wife and me.
Sure enough, right in the middle of a quiet brooding piece, Mingus begins to roar at the piano player.
No mic, yet everyone in the Keller, then the Civic Auditorium heard him. Ever thought it was already quiet.
It brought an eerie hush to the place

We did get to go back and meet him thought

My Pops...

 

[Brad Johnson]

Dunno 'bout dat. But IMO it would have been a far better if they kept it as a straightforward pop/rock number like the opening had going for it. Maybe if they dropped the superfluous horn section, and didn't overproduce and "sweeten" the living tar out of like they did.

That was Toto. What you described wouldn't have been.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It's why most modern players (local/on the magazines/whatevs) leave me cold. They don't have that grit.
That special sauce.

Mingus yelled and played out of time.

James Brown can't be set to a metronome.

David Hungate flailed all over a track and that KILLED

Jamerson's strings were so old they had leprosy.

They were all sloppy, beautiful, highly-original freaks.

Off to start a punk band, a quarter-tone below A440

IMO it's about recognizing what the goal is. Many don't... and boy does it show.


Steely Dan would be the exception as far as painstaking recording techniques that still get the idea across.

 

[ElMon]

IMO it's about recognizing what the goal is. Many don't... and boy does it show.


Steely Dan would be the exception as far as painstaking recording techniques that still get the idea across.

I wonder what younger players get up to for learning lines.

For me it wasn't about just finding all the notes on the fretboard. I wanted to nail the feel, which was infinitely-harder.

Still is ... and I still sound like me.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I wonder what younger players get up to for learning lines.

For me it wasn't about just finding all the notes on the fretboard. I wanted to nail the feel, which was infinitely-harder.

Still is ... and I still sound like me.

Same here. I've heard some cringeworthy renditions of songs where the notes are "correct".

 

[DJ Bebop]

As an example that music can sound good even when the bass is played quite well?

Nope, how ragged things can sound isolated yet make the cut, sort of speak in the mix

 

[ElMon]

Same here. I've heard some cringeworthy renditions of songs where the notes are "correct".

Or when the jam session guy calls 'Higher Ground', starts playing it Chili Pepper style, and you come in with that snaky, feel-lathered Stevie's left-hand version and get the stink eye!

Same gig, I F'ed up and actually played the bridge section to 'Living in the City'.

 

[40Hz]

That was Toto. What you described wouldn't have been.

Nope. But I'm talking about a particular song. Not Toto's "branding" on it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nope. But I'm talking about a particular song. Not Toto's "branding" on it.

You're not talking about "Rosanna"? I was.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Or when the jam session guy calls 'Higher Ground', starts playing it Chili Pepper style, and you come in with that snaky, feel-lathered Stevie's left-hand version and get the stink eye!

Same gig, I F'ed up and actually played the bridge section to 'Living in the City'.

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I feel your pain.